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Death, as a Rest from Life
[cite] Carl:[/cite]But this is the 'fly in the ointment'. Pure white bread feels very "good" to the rat's taste buds as it's eating, but the long term consequences feel "bad" (malnutrition and death). Our feelings about things in wild natural conditions inform us well - evolution works! As we humans began to [chref=16]wilfully innovate[/chref] without [chref=72]a proper sense of awe[/chref], we changed that equation. We can no longer trust our feelings to inform us as well as they did in the wild.
So this is where I start to look at impact. I can say it is all just a story and there is no inherent "good" or "bad" but when I say that I also know that there is an impact to what we do and say.
It requires deciding based on intellectualizing rather then just the feelings of it. It is much less reliable and less constant.
Comments
Seeing death as The End disturbs us more than a little. After all, the survival instinct drives us to live, live, live. Our perceptual discomfort with death must be caused by our mind's ability to imagine a separate 'self' and then to imagine the death of that 'self', each the antithesis of the other. No wonder we are a neurotic species!
There are other ways to see it though. For example, we have the idea of heaven. This probably works for those who really believe in it. Though, the utter lack of 'evidence' means this belief requires tons of 'faith'.
Buddha's admonition to believe only what you have verified by personal experience makes 'heaven' a bit out of reach, for me anyway
After the 'rest' which death brings, life goes on. Of course, not the life of 'yesterday's self', but of 'tomorrow's self'. If we see consciousness - pure consciousness - as independent of the personal 'ego' experience, it becomes easy to feel that consciousness continues despite the death of our body and its 'ego'. We experience our personal 'self' through consciousness, not the other way around. Thus, while my 'self' experience differs from a mouse's, our subjective experiences are both illuminated by consciousness - pure and simple.
This consciousness continues although the personal self ends. This priceless core of who we are is constant and never dies. Some call it our spiritual 'self',... I just call it '[chref=56]mysterious sameness[/chref]'. The memory based attachments and instinctive drives do end, not the 'light'. The more we love the 'light', the less we worry about losing the attachments. Prove it, you say?
Oh no you don't
Personally, I never really enjoyed life until I was able to appreciate death. They are two sides of the same coin. Having a 'problem' with one transfers to the other. That is not to say I didn't have 'fun' and feel pleasure before. But, lurking in the [chref=14]shadows[/chref] was always that 'stranger' death.
For me, death, even though it's scary to my human ego-self, promises release from the stuggles/suffering that come with having a body, a sense of self. I think that one of the recent chapters questions what worries/problems would I have if I didn't have a body. Which also ties in I believe with the Buddhist points in Dependent Origination.
I'm pretty sure that when the body dies, the self dies too and that consciousness continues. I hope this doesn't sound like I have bad self esteem: I will be happy to see this little self, ego, go. It causes so much trouble and suffering, mostly for me, but sometimes for those around me. I don't think it'll be a great loss. I think that at the moment of death, the split second when it happens, this little self will say 'oh, yeah, right...now I remember." It will feel like the going home to end all going homes.
I just remembered asking Carl how he could say that life and death are the same and now I can say the same thing and mean it. That's a profound change, huh? I love this board!
This brings to mind my sense that we are incapable of sincerely considering any evidence (or in this case lack of evidence!) that tends to water down, if not extinguish, those ideals and beliefs (in this case heaven) on which we hold dear. Our emotions bend the ?evidence? to fit the need we feel.
I think this suggests why the scientific method works as well as it does. First, the only evidence that is acceptable is that which can be ?put on a table?. Equally important though is the fact that most or us don?t have a deep emotional stake in the interpretations of that evidence, nor do we have a stake in how Nature works its wonders. I mean, who cares if light travels at 186,000 or 18,600,000 miles per second? Who cares if the moon is made of atoms on cheese? ... as long as our toasters and toilets work, we're happy
Oh, and finally, the fact that science insists on having evidence that can be put 'on the table' is why science can never pass through the [chref=1]gateway of the manifold secrets[/chref]. That journey [chref=64]starts from beneath one's feet[/chref] - each and every one of us. Which may be why we nab onto beliefs, like heaven, to use as stepping stones on our way to that [chref=32]uncarved block[/chref]. Yep, somehow it all seems to fit.
Seriously, I've got no idea what (if anything) will happen other than my physical body dying and my consciousness ceasing to exist as I currently understand it. All that rubbish with mediums 'talking' to the 'dear departed' so that they can tell 'our Rodney' that they're 'happy' - if there is an afterlife, I certainly won't be hurrying back to utter banal platitudes!
A perfect question! Which really puts me on the spot
Consciousness is Tao mind. In anticipation of your next question, I'll stumble on...
Tao mind is our [chref=25]silent[/chref] experience of awareness which can not [chref=1] be spoken of, or be named[/chref]. It is that [chref=39]One[/chref] we 'sense' which is [chref=14]without substance[/chref]. We 'feel it' as [chref=15]minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending, and too profound to be known.[/chref] Utter [chref=16]impartiality[/chref] is its 'color'. [chref=35]Its passage through the mouth is without flavor.[/chref] It is the light that shines, not the objects which are illuminated by that [chref=52]light[/chref]. The objects swing to and fro, and come and go - the light is [chref=16]constant[/chref].
It seems that such [chref=78]straightforward[/chref] consciousness is more than our emotions can handle. So from birth onward we [chref=32]cut the uncarved block [/chref] and assemble the broken pieces into beliefs to which [chref=19]we can attach ourselves[/chref]. But, in doing so, we disconnect ourselves psychologically from the simple silent experience of consciousness in which the rest of creation abides - as far as I can tell anyway.
We all experience this Tao mind; we just can't muster up [chref=23]enough faith[/chref] in it alone to sustain us. It is just too [chref=21]indistinct and shadowy[/chref]. The survival instinct makes it 'impossible' for us to trust that [chref=40]turning back is how the way moves, and that weakness is the means the way employs.[/chref] It feels [chref=4]empty[/chref] and this sense of [chref=5]void[/chref] evokes insecurity, if not fear, in us. So we carve up the [chref=37]nameless uncarved block[/chref] into little bits and pieces which feel real enough to wrap our thoughts and emotions around. And, bingo we have language, followed by belief.
Simply put, we look upon that which the [chref=52]light[/chref] shines as being the [chref=52]light[/chref] itself, when in truth we are only seeing reflections and shadows of that [chref=52]light[/chref]. That, by itself, is no problem - all species do the same. But, we fill ourselves up with those images, [chref=1]name[/chref] them, and lug them around in our mind and emotion, while other species leave them be. We focus on the images rather than follow the [chref=52]light[/chref]. In a way, we are trapped in our mind. Ironically, our mind's [chref=18]cleverness[/chref] tends to obfuscate pure consciousness (i.e., Tao mind).
And that is not a problem either. That's human. However, we might all be a little more [chref=46]content[/chref] if we knew ourselves more as the [chref=39]'solitary', 'desolate', and 'hapless'[/chref] little animals we are :oops:, rather than the 'superior consciousness' ones we imagine ourselves to be 8).
Yep,...
Does this mean there is one universal mind? I don't think there is but it kind of sounds that way. I think more of Tao mind as a ground for all being, all consciousness, it underlies everything.
We take consciousness for granted, naturally. It really is a amazing thing, to be conscious, to be aware. Where does it come from?
I wouldn't want to put too fine a point on it... you know [chref=4]blunt the sharpness.[/chref] I feel your "it really is amazing" says it all. But, I won't let that stop me. Our search for understanding, vis-a-vis consciousness, or anything else, has its downside. This is how it seems to go down...
We are born seeing the world as it is. Next we learn to think, and we eventually think we understand how the world is. As we come to understand how the world is, our understanding conforms to how we think the world is, and we cease seeing the world as it is. I guess you could say we dig ourselves into a 'consciousness hole'.
This was inevitable for a species with such a capable brain / mind as we have. We can't avoid the blindness that acquiring thought and understanding imparts. However, realizing that understanding blinds, helps me put understanding aside - suspend belief - or more accurately suspend the trust I place in it... yep, and most especially what I'm writing here. Then, for brief moments, when I wish, I can again see the world as it is. Here, [chref=3]innocent of knowledge[/chref], 'it' is, as you say, "amazing".
[chref=70]Understanding[/chref], in the Taoist sense of the word, is [chref=2]the teaching that uses no words[/chref]. It is perceptual not conceptual. Thought, with its [chref=32]names[/chref], simply constricts and deadens this spontaneous perception - the eyes of [chref=55]a new born babe[/chref].
Yet, we are not so much prisoners locked in our mind (and its beliefs), as prisoners of the unquestioned faith we put in our thoughts and beliefs (scientific, religious, or just gossip). We believe our conceptual interpretations ([chref=14]named[/chref] and [chref=1]spoken [/chref]) of what we sense 'is' is - to quote our last president
[chref=15]Of old he who was well versed in the way
Was minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending,
And too profound to be known.
It is because he could not be known
That he can only be given a makeshift description:
Tentative, as if fording a river in winter,
Hesitant, as if in fear of his neighbors;
Formal like a guest;
Falling apart like thawing ice;
Thick like the uncarved block;
Vacant like a valley;
Murky like muddy water. [/chref]
I just had to paste the whole thing in there!
Wow. I should have that line tatooed on me somewhere. Yes, exactly, it is the unquestioned beliefs, the ones that I'm not even aware that I have, that blind me. We operate under so many assumptions, really basic assumptions, and then we assume and project beliefs on those assumptions until we have created a huge pile of stuff to carry around with us. It's real hard to cut through all that without some guidance and, for me, repeated reminders.
I think that's why I find the Tao so beautiful. Somewhere I know it's true. It's simple, really, if I don't think about it too much.
Thanks, Allandone. I was wondering about the rocks! Sleeping sounds right. I don't know if I agree about the animals, though. They don't seem that different from us in terms of consciousness; maybe in brain size and self-consciousness. Lucky dogs.
I agree with you about the Tao Te Ching, And the more I begin to understand it, that is, stand under it, the more sense it makes. The 4 Noble Truths and 8 Fold Path helps keep me focused and balanced, but the Tao Te Ching allows me to be connected to eveything and nothing. YES , "Lucky DOGS"
Where you find Energy, you find Consciouness! :idea:
Or is it where you find [chref=16]stillness[/chref], you find consciousness. I see this "energy" aspect of consciousness as more of a symptom - a shadow - of consciousness. I suppose this corresponds to how we 'get' [chref=40]something from nothing[/chref]. Now, to fill this metaphor [chref=9]to the brim[/chref]: This shadow is the enlightened reflection of the [chref=4]Dark[/chref] and [chref=6]Dimly visible[/chref]. Oooo, spooky, and goofy. It is all the turkey.
How do we do that?
What a marvelous question!
A "symbol" only holds as much life meaning as we give to it. So, how do we give the symbol less meaning? The roots of this plunge all the way down into our deepest emotion - trust. The less we trust that the symbol reflects the meaning we give it, the more liberated from that trap in the "back of our own heads".
So, how do we place less trust in something - anything? To answer that implies another question; why do we place trust in anything in the first place? Mmmmm.... Let us ponder that awhile. I suspect our answer/s to why will help us with how.
Heck, it seems to work that way with most everything else - at least everything where 'the how to' hasn't evolved over millennia of trial and error. Surely, each of us must find our 'how to' within, and we don't live the thousands of years required for trial and error discovery. I've found being [chref=5]ruthlessly[/chref] self honest helps me sense why I do what I do. Of course, that begs the questions, "how do we do" ruthless self honesty? Mmmmmm.... Let us ponder that awhile too...
Maybe we're back to where this thread started (i.e., Death is a Rest from Life).
It is fear that drives us to trust. Fear of [chref=16]stillness and emptiness[/chref] impels us to trust in [chref=40]Something[/chref]. This occurs deep in our emotions, not in the rational part of consciousness. Here we are talking about holding on to our "preconceptions of what the Tao is". 'Holding on' emotionally affirms the self... the sense of..., followed by the illusion of..., See Buddha's Truth #2)
As far as I can tell, "dropping" this trust requires an emotional willingness to be [chref=4]empty[/chref] - to die. [email protected]#$%! Of course, this begs the question, "how do we do" willing to die :?:
Now you will tell me to drop my G_ddamn optimism. No, I say No! (Or maybe you are saying drop your mixed metaphors -- that's easier to say yes to.)
Through meditation we experience the little deaths that make "willing to die" doable. Don't you think? The Budddha says to only trust your own experience, and that's been mine.
Yes!
I think you will groan if I ask: What about nonattachment to the idea of being nonattached? Maybe Carl can shine his light on this. Hey, Carl, you out there?
Exactly!... and truly that applies to all ideas. It is all mush in here (as he points to his head)...
The 'situation' we are constantly trying to 'fix' is caused by placing too much trust in what we assume we know. As we say, "[chref=71]to think that one knows will lead to difficulty[/chref]". Which is why we never get anywhere. Well, that's not entirely true. We do get to go round in circles a lot.
Of course, as we get older we all realize we don't [chref=81]know[/chref] what we thought we knew. I call it knowing I don't [chref=56]know[/chref]. But, as we get older, we die off and the whole thing repeats itself in the following generation.
Now, is this a problem? No more so than a 'redying' of winter followed by a 'rebirth' of spring. We, like nature, go round and round.
By the way, have you noticed how often the word [chref=47]know[/chref] is used in the Tao Te Ching. It is a big deal in Taoism. Curious...
1) Ironic, eh? Simply said, you can't [chref=52]shut the doors[/chref] as long as your hands are holding on to stuff. Only as we drop our trust in stuff, do we become more [chref=15]mysteriously comprehending[/chref].
2) One kink: Only when we take stuff - any stuff - less seriously can we enjoy the journey. And, to reiterate, the more we trust [chref=3]knowledge[/chref], the more seriously we'll hold on to our stuff.
Another irony just occurred to me: In a general kind of way, Christianity preaches to the 'heart' and believes the 'word'. And, Taoism preaches to the 'mind' (e.g., [chref=71]know[/chref]) and believes the 'heart'. Some like vanilla and some like chocolate. I suppose being 'dark', Taoism is the chocolate. Yummy...
May this explain some of the differences between East and West...?
"A gene that exerts wide-ranging effects on the brain works harder in people than it does in chimpanzees and other nonhuman primates, a DNA disparity that apparently contributed to the evolution of Homo sapiens, according to a new study. The gene participates in production of prodynorphin, an opiumlike protein that serves as a building block for chemical messengers in the brain known as endorphins. Studies have implicated endorphins in the anticipation and experience of pain, in the formation of intimate emotional bonds with others, and in learning and memory....
....Finally, the scientists analyzed DNA from 510 individuals around the globe. They found that many people now living in Europe and eastern Africa possess three copies of the prodynorphin regulatory sequence, whereas people in India and China usually possess two copies of that sequence". ( This excerpt from: Science News, Nov. 26, 2005; Vol. 168, No. 22, DNA Clues to Our Kind: Regulatory gene linked to human evolution.)
Thus, Western people may be a tad more 'emotional', which would account for why Western people adopted the more emotional religions they did. Mmmm...?
Oh, and by the way Allandnone, I've assigned my subconscious mind to mull over the perplexing teenager situation you posted. My conscious mind is dumbfounded. I'm waiting for :idea:
PS: I am looking forward to your suggestions about my teenagers. I will be out of town the next week or so. I hope evryone out in the Tao Land have a wonderful holiday!
Hi, Dragon Lady...
I ditto your sentiments. And, I would add a tad...
(1) I personally find my curiosity about the unknown - and unknowable - is a driving force in my life. Yikes! So, that's a big deal for some of us hominids, eh? I suppose those of us in whom the unknown evokes more 'fear' (insecurity) than curiosity would be driven to "draw a line under things".
(2) I suspect that the emotional dynamic I point out just above determines how easily we are able to "take each day (and moment) as it comes". Because fears drive us to "overplan, overthink", we are really quite incapable of "resisting" these symptoms of our insecurity. Though we "resist" plenty, we never succeed. Our depth of insecurity determines our approach to life. And our approach determines how our lives play out. Ha! Even that very "resistance" is driven by insecurity.
Where's Santa Claus when we need him?
I think it is possible to resist - but only when we have established where our insecurities lie, what caused them and how we address them.
For the record, Carl, Santa Claus is within you - he is that little bit of magic/imagination/insight that we all possess. However, as adults we tend to lose him/it.