The shared bedroom and 'brainwashing'

Carl · December 2004

or I'd NEVER get any reading done-i often wonder what books I'll leave unread when i die...I've always loved to read-prefeered it to play as a child. my thick glasses testify to my devotion to the printed word. but since having my kid around, I barely read a book a week and the newspaper (addicted to the daily news, crap though it is-I'm an old newspaper man, ink in my veins). My goal is to retire in 12 more years, at whicch point my kid will be done with schooling and probably move away, get a trailer at my nudist club and sit out on my porch in the woods all day, feeling the breeze and reading till i die at 115 or so...

Carl · December 2004

Ah,... the whole family sleeping in one room. It's not surprising that this seems so weird to American culture, given the virtue we place on independence. I spent 15 years abroad, around the world seven times, living mostly among third world peoples. The level of family connection I saw during those years became my model for how to approach family life when the time came. In fact, throughout human history families have slept together, as do other primate families. Being together as a tribe, whether sleeping or awake, imparts a level of emotional security and stability that has become rare in a modern wealthy cultures such as ours.

Note: The kids are not forced to sleep in the bed room, nor have they ever been forced to do anything. This is part of the magic of living a tribal way. Mutual respect and cooperation come naturally and thus discipline is never needed. The kids can do anything they want including move to another room, house, or country if and when they wish. So far, they appear to derive the utmost pleasure from pitching in and 'sharing the load of life' as a family. How quaint, old-fashioned and weird, eh?

Lynn Cornish · December 2004

I'm blushing because Rick and I sleep with all three dogs on the bed because we feel it's important for them to feel part of the pack, yet we would never have considered sleeping with our 2 boys. Sounds like the same thing in retrospect.

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

We also do the family bed in our home. We also home birthed as well

My kids are 6 and my youngest will be 2 next month. My oldest now has his own bed in his own room, but some nights he likes to sleep with the rest of the family, so we put a smaller bed beside our bed for him. The smaller bed is there because it gets crowded with 4 of us in the queen sized bed. LOL

Carl, I agree 100% with you on what you said on the show about cribs. You said somethinng about how people tend to put kids in a crib in another room to teach them independence ? Did I hear it right? (I agree with a lot of what you said to tell you the truth)
Personally, I have a big problem with cribs, and even though we have 2 children we don't own one. Actually I don't use any type of 'mother subsitute' (swings, stroller, jolly jumpers' and the like) Pretty much the only thing I use is a sling that I use to hold my little guy in.

I'm wondering how you feel about CIO (Crying It out) that is when you leave a child to cry himself to sleep.
I'm always getting into huge debates on anothe board because I think it's a cruel thing to do.

Anyway, I really like your family and I can't wait to see next weeks show. I hope they show you in a better light though.

CHantal

Buddy1 · December 2004

My 10 yo boy and i sleep together-his choice. He occasionally crashes elsewhere (no bedroom of his own in our small apt, but a nice futon in the living room), but since last summer when he went to Cali for 2 weeks (our longest seperation in 5 years) he's been in my bed every night. We read out loud, we talk, he;s the last thing I see at night and when i wake up in the morning he's the first thing I see, and I wouldnt want it any other way-this summer we're moving to a bigger place and he'll get his own bedroom. Where he sleeps then is up to him. I assume by the time he marries, he'll be sleeping on his own. if not, his wife better be open minded.

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

I understand what you are saying Buddy1.
I love being close to my kids at night. *I* had a hard time sleeping the first night my oldest wanted to sleep away from me.

I assume by the time he marries, he'll be sleeping on his own. if not, his wife better be open minded.

That what I say about breastfeeding AND co sleeping, lol

Carl · December 2004

The report in Science New (last year I think) surveyed how mothers from 3 cultures, Japan, Mayan and USA raised their kids. The first two sleep with them to make them feel a secure part of their family. The USA mother's put their kids in a crib in another room to make them independent. That we make a virtue out of this practice is as un-natural as the circumcision they preform of women in the Sudan (or here on boys). Of course there are countless other examples, eh?

The inhabitant of each culture on this planet tend to become narrowly focused on the 'virtue' of their own beliefs, rites and rituals. I've find that it's impossible for us hominids to rationally ponder what we believe. For example, we three boys always go barefoot. The 2 kids have done so since birth; I learned from them about ten years ago. Now, we don't 'believe' in going barefoot, we just go barefoot because it feels so great given our mild climate and all. But, I can't tell you how often we've come across folks who 'believe' that we should wear shoes, or not be so primitive, or... well... you name it. I sense that it is fear that pushes people to project their 'beliefs' onto others with such a passionate fervor. Examples abound, eh? ... especially in religion and politics. So, I think there's nothing I can do when someone projects their belief onto me, save understand and be compassionate for the fear (fear of death in the end) that drives this desperation of belief in folks.

Buddy1 · December 2004

oh, the trials and travials of a barefooter. But that others in this world had a bigger concern than my bare feet...I try and show compassion, as you said, for what they fear and what they're missing...but then they push it and it becoimes a huge battle, political, etc...I wont give up my personal freedoms, and I wont let then be taken away...
whats the first thing people do at home and on vacation? Take their shoes off. I get this freedom everyday, everywhere (or as much as possible in this cold wet NW). Putting socks, &/or shoes on depresses me-what a way to start a day...
I learned barefooting from a college friend in my late teens-I hadnt gone bf since pre teen days-my teen years were a nightmare of modesty even down to my feet. What a waste that seems now. My kid would go Bf and shirtless 24 & 7 given a chance-as he and your boys proved, kids dont want or need shoes, but the world wants them to have shoes, lest they make the community look 'uncaring or poor' and theres the rub...
Even at my nudist club i get in arguments and get strange looks per barefooting. Why would I want to seperate myself from nature in this way? the one part of me that actually touches the ground should be covered? balogney. yet even nudists feel this way-how silly is that?

Luke Abbott · December 2004

Last year! LOL! It was from 1992, dad.

Anyway,

[cite] Science News, 1992, 142-78:[/cite]Weeping Over Sleeping

Night falls, and across the United States the curtain rises on a classic domestic dispute. Scene one: Mother (or father) feeds baby, sings gently to baby, puts baby in the crib, and tiptoes out of the room. Scene two: Baby moans, cries, and shrieks for what seems like hours until a parent returns to the crib. Scene three: Frazzled parents race to the nearest bookstore and buy yet another manual of child-care advice.

Surveys indicate that for many parents living outside the United States, from rural Italian villagers to Japanese city dwellers, such bedtime strife never develops. Instead, infants sleep with their mothers for the first few years of life ? at least in the same room and usually in the same bed.

Most U.S. parents avoid this tactic because they believe that infants who sleep alone develop a sense of independence and self-reliance that will serve them well later on, asserts a research team led by psychologist Gilda A. Morelli of Boston College in Chestnut Hill, Mass. "Security objects, such as a stuffed animal, and bedtime rituals ease the path to sleep for many infants, but parents often feel obliged to avoid offering any direct comfort during the night," Morelli and her colleagues observe in the July Developmental Psychology.

Maya villagers living in Guatemala provide a stark contrast, the researchers maintain. The Maya mothers allow infants and toddlers to sleep with them for several years out of a reported commitment to forge a close bond with their offspring, the researchers note. Security objects and bedtime rituals do not appear in these households. When a new baby arrives, children sleep with another family member or moves to a separate bed in the same room, usually with few problems.

Morelli and her associates base these conclusions on at-home interviews conducted with 14 Maya mothers and 18 middle class U.S. mothers. Each participant had a child between 2 months and 28 months old; most had older children as well.

Sleeping arrangements in both communities reflect a kind of "cultural imperative perceived by parents," the scientists contend. Morelli's team does not argue that either U.S. or Maya parents should change their practices.

"U.S. parents clearly see that their kids are stressed when they sleep alone," contends psychologist Edward Z. Tronick of Children's Hospital in Boston. "But the parents seem to accept this as a way to promote a child's independence and self regulation of anxiety in other contexts.

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

Thanks for posting that, it was a great reading.
I'll admit it, the real reason we started the family bed in our home was so that my babies could be close to me for middle of the night feedings.

I can't imagine having to get up and make a bottle at 3 am.

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

Now, we don't 'believe' in going barefoot, we just go barefoot because it feels so great given our mild climate and all.

It makes total sense too.
I'm in Canada, so I wouldn't dare do it in the winter, but in the summer I am always without shoes. I just don;t like how they feel on my feet.

msarizona · December 2004

My daughter is 11 years and I have slept in the same bed / same room with her sense she was born. I don't sleep in the same bed with my husband, and haven't for years. Sometimes I sleep in the same bed with her, sometimes on the floor next to her bed. If I happen to fall asleep on the couch she will wake in the middle of the night and come look for me. Or sometimes we will sleep in the living room, her on the love seat, me on the sofe. I feel a warmth of security being close to her at night. I see nothing wrong with shareing a bed or room with your child. I am sure one day my daughter will say...hey mom...get out...don't need you in here nomore. and i will accept that. But for right now this works for me and my daughter

phinx · December 2004

Yea, I guess that is why i am so used in sleeping in my parent's room. I was always sick when i was a baby, and especially during the winter. I'd always sleep in their room because they wanted to make sure i was always sleeping ok, and that i was breathing since i also had really bad asthma during my childhood. It's better that way then always having to get up and check on me in the other room across the hall. Especially with the threat of SIDS, you can make sure your child is breathing properly at night.

also, my family is filipino and we're quite use to this situation.

Anonymous · December 2004

My girls co-slept exclusively with my hubby and me during their first year of life primarily because I breastfed them and it was the best way to insure a good night's sleep!
They moved to their own beds after they stopped night-nursing but even now (at almost 4 and 6) they still creep into bed with us at least twice a week or so.
The best thing is snuggling up to their warm little bodies. Quite the comfy feeling, no?
I am always amazed that adults who can't sleep without their partners in bed next to them would want to put a helpless babe alone in a different room of the house and expect them to sleep!!
I don't understand all the hype about independence anyway. Children are meant to be dependent on their parents during the early part of their lives and humans are such social creatures that we continue to need the presence of others throughout our lives. No man is an island ;-)
I guess I'm lucky that my children get to see not only their dad and me but their grandmother, great-grandmother, various aunts, uncles and cousins, and until very recently even their great-great grandmother on a regular basis. It's nice to know that so many people love them :-)
Anyway, I'm rambling. I just wanted to let you know that I was very inspired to see a family outside the mainstream on national television.

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

Children are meant to be dependent on their parents during the early part of their lives and humans are such social creatures that we continue to need the presence of others throughout our lives

Yup! I don't think that children are meant to sleep alone anyway. They spend nine month close to us being very proteced and then as soon as they are born we are supposed to put them alone in another room? It doesn't sound right at all.

Ever hear of Jan Hunt? Here is an article she wrote.

[Edit: Sorry, but the article, entitled Is It Time to Abolish Cribs?, has been removed due to space issues (it's quite long). However, you can still read the entire article on the following site. I do think it's very interesting. Cribs are crazy.]

Click here: Is It Time to Abolish Cribs?

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

Yikes, sorry about the spelling. Clearly english is not my mother tongue.

Buddy1 · December 2004

Your English is better than my Canadian...

Buddy1 · December 2004

Y'all should've told them you all share one bed! LOL! I could imagine the soccer moms falling out of their chairs if they heard that...

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

Probably the same reaction I get when people hear that my oldest son nursed till he was 5. *gasp*
How dare I nurse him that long. Have I not heard of formula or cow milk?!

musicalbeastie · December 2004

Maybe I'm missing something here. I understand and appreciate the desire to form strong family bonds, and I see that sleeping in the same room/bed can aid in this. What I don't understand, and everyone else seems to be too delicate to ask about, is how do you handle sexual relations in such a situation. Obviously there are many other places and times when you could have sex, but sometimes you may want to have sex in bed, at night, while snuggling with your partner. Do you just not do this? Do you ask the kids to leave? Do you expose your kids directly to sex between you and your partner? And what about your kids - can they really feel free to explore masturbation when they are sleeping in the same room with their parents? How do you create a situation where you have family closeness and maintain sufficient privacy for everyone to explore their sexuality?

Carl · December 2004

This came up earlier and Ms. Frizzle had a quick take on it, and I added this. Forgive me for being rather impatient with the subject / question. It just brings home yet another aspect of our culture's profound 'spoiled' out-of-step-ness with nature. It is sad really.

You tell em, Ms Frizzle. Moreover, you'd think a little imagination should answer their questions. Still, a person must be able to ponder things for themselves a little to even see :idea: the obvious. And we call ourselves Homo Sapiens sapiens... really. I wonder how humanity has solved this sexual 'problem' over the hundreds of millennia before we became wealthy enough as a society to all have our own little private 'sex' room. Our culture (and humanity in general I suppose) has such sexual hangups it's both pathetic and hilarious.

We carry around so much fear. We're so afraid to just be and play it by ear

phinx · December 2004

[cite] musicalbeastie:[/cite]Maybe I'm missing something here. I understand and appreciate the desire to form strong family bonds, and I see that sleeping in the same room/bed can aid in this. What I don't understand, and everyone else seems to be too delicate to ask about, is how do you handle sexual relations in such a situation. Obviously there are many other places and times when you could have sex, but sometimes you may want to have sex in bed, at night, while snuggling with your partner. Do you just not do this? Do you ask the kids to leave? Do you expose your kids directly to sex between you and your partner? And what about your kids - can they really feel free to explore masturbation when they are sleeping in the same room with their parents? How do you create a situation where you have family closeness and maintain sufficient privacy for everyone to explore their sexuality?

What i have learned in my school and the krsna believers (when they visited my school) is that being married isn't about lust, it's about the spirit of the person. maybe that's why there is such a high divorse rate in the US today. If someone sleeps in your room or your bed with you, it doesn't automatically say, OMGs! they're having sex. No it doesn't.

so you just consider a husbad or a wife = sex partner? and being that definition you think that being married means having sex every single night. Is there nothing on your dirty mind but sex and masturbation. Besides there are other places rather than the bedroom to explore sexuality.

Buddy1 · December 2004

I've lived in a lot of houses, and never yet have I had my own private 'sex room'. LOL. I'm lucky to afford a place with indoor plumbing...
Sorry, not feeling very serious tonight...

Buddy1 · December 2004

I DID go on the forums and leave a couple messages, but fairly respectful ones, given that as a supporter of the abbotts, bluegrassn & bare feet, i'm a reresentative of them and thus must act honorably. But damn, people are interested in your sex lives-geez! guess thats the price you pay for exposing so much to the world-now they want to know it ALL...people have filthy minds, and big noses...

fabian · December 2004

Found this on the other board.......

"There is affection,and there is creepy. I'm sorry,it is NOT alright for mostly grown children to sleep in the bed with their parents. That leaves the door wide open should papa decide it's ok to do something he shouldn't. My daughter did sleep in the same bed with me until she was about 2. That's TWO,not 18!!!-Did anyone also not notice,while papa is spouting all this about Chinese culture,that papa obviously isn't Chinese?LOL,the man is demented,has nothing to do with so-called normal society. I mean,he's looking at a book,whatever it was,and both boys are trying to read it over his shoulder. -And I don't think they have a sense of humor,they showed that over and over again. That's just my opinion,and opinions are like armpits,we all have em,and some of em stink"

Buddy1 · December 2004

if this family didnt have a sense of humor, i wouldnt have stuck around this long...that's one essential for any extended communication with me.
I read several comments along the line of this on those forums: "I dont have time to go on their website' etc...they're judging based on their own limited preconceptions. Why they're so proud to wave their ignorance flag so high, i know not...

Ms. Frizzle · December 2004

The whole ' where do you have sex if you all share a bed' question is as stupid as it is annoying.
I can't believe people really feel the need to ask it. I don't even waste my time answering it anymore.

AS for the poste that phinx posted..well look at the writter...a person who only knows what s/he saw on TV for about an hour.

Did anyone also not notice,while papa is spouting all this about Chinese culture,that papa obviously isn't Chinese?LOL

Ok, and the point to that would be.....what? My husband is asian, does the fact that I am french, and not asian mean I can't teach others about it? And would the poster like an award because s/he noticed that Carl isn't CHinese? Wow, lets give her/him a medal for that one!!

I mean,he's looking at a book,whatever it was,and both boys are trying to read it over his shoulder.

ohmygosh, how horrible!!! :roll: How dare they try to look at the same book that their dad is looking at. Shame on you Luke and Kyle.

(note my sarcasm)

They know not what of they speak, and after next week there will be a new family that they can all pick on.
One thing I learned, if my family ever goes on TV I will not checking any message boards except for my own! lol

amberfirestone · December 2004

The key importance here is TRUST. If a parent cannot be trusted with their child in ANY setting...a door will certainly not stop any adult from abuse. Then that is the problem. As far as co-sleeping, it is the family's peroggative to decide what the sleeping arrangements might be. For those who make ignorant judgements regarding the "hazzards of the family bed" Hmm... have they camped as a family?Had a sleepover? Have they ever made room for a guest? All types of scenarios occur during our lives which cause us to share our sleeping space. If an individual prefers to have their "space" that is a valid reason to have a room of their own for the time. Just be comfy!

The underlying issue here is that like every other aspect of this society, it is all about the "ME."

amberfirestone · December 2004

Unfortunately, our so-called "normal society" is failing. Be wise and become more educated in these matters before you criticize.

And don't forget, A bedroom door WON'T keep a pedophile away.

Buddy1 · December 2004

Did you guys have a 'family conference' about what aspects of your life you might not want to share with the nation? and if so, did the shared bedroom come up? Or did the attention this gets surprise you?
How do your family freinds deal with this and other aspects of your life that differ from the norm? my friends think i'm a total freak just for not having a regular bed...
I assume you just said 'put it all out there and let the people decide if they want to judge us', because you really have nothing to hide...I, however, would have to move and wear a fake mustache and glasses before allowing a reality show into my tomb...

Buddy1 · December 2004

There IS a funny website 'fans of reality tv' with recaps of all the episodes by 'hepcat'. not very nice, but at least he's fairly funny, and an equal opportunity insulter, instead of just picking on the Abbotts-though they get the lion's share, naturally...

and...love how a religion of thousands of years standing like taoism is considered a 'cult'...

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The shared bedroom and 'brainwashing'

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