Desire-Nature Itself

Allandnone · April 2005

happy birthday, judy li! and welcome.

Allandnone · April 2005

Maybe I am missing something here. As a retired Electrical Engineer I think techology is a two edged sword, it can give meaning to life (Nature) and it can take it away. I think it is safe to say most people do not want to go back to the stone age. Balance is the key thing, unfortunately this balance is not going on. I think the inherent problem is that we do not utilize a lot of Wisdom in applying technology. In theory it should go something like this, a) collect Raw Data, b) use this Raw Data to establish Information, c) use this Information to establish Understanding, d) use Understanding to establish Knowledge, and e) use Knowledge to establish Wisdom. With today's techology we start with a lot of raw data and wind up with very little Wisdom. It is scary, just look what the Atomic Bomb brought to us today.

Back many moons ago, the Native Americans followed these above steps with nature in mind and ended up with a lot of Wisdom applied for the many generation ahead. Needless to say guns, steel and germs destroyed that beautiful process. Some Technology has given meaning to my life, for example if you try to understand the basics of Quantum Mechanics you will see that Science is finally starting to caught up with Buddha (ha ha). If you try to understand the field of electromagnetics it is quite clear that everything is connected, if you try to understand the Big Bang Theory you will imediately relate to Tao Te Ching. In fact there are scientists, engineers etc. that relate to Eastern Philosophy to help guide them.

To get Wisdom from technology, I think we need to start educating our children to go from Raw Data to Wisdom. These children will be the future decision makers. They are the ones who can really make the difference and bring back the meaning of life.

What do you think?

Carl · April 2005

[cite] Allandnone:[/cite].... In theory it should go something like this,
a) collect Raw Data,
b) use this Raw Data to establish Information,
c) use this Information to establish Understanding,
d) use Understanding to establish Knowledge, and
e) use Knowledge to establish Wisdom.

I think we need to start educating our children to go from Raw Data to Wisdom.

Reflecting back over my life, and looking back on history as well, I find a fatal flaw in your theory. Yes, your view is the ideal that our paradigm touts, but it doesn't comport with the reality, the reality that I see anyway. It is wishful thinking. Darn!

Each baby born 'grows' its wisdom just as it 'grows' its muscle and bone. Knowledge, to quote Chuang Tzu, is "dead man's words" and imparts no wisdom to the living. Any wisdom we perceive in "dead man's words" simply reflect the wisdom we've managed to 'grow' within ourselves through the [chref=51]circumstances [/chref] of life.

I know I'm rather alone in this view. Most folks believe something 'out there' holds the key. The a) to e) process you lay out above is what each person has done, birth to death, since our species evolved a brain capable of handling all that "Raw Data". But, it is not possible to transmit wisdom because wisdom hinges on the quality of perspective, not on the quantity of data and knowledge. It is like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Furthermore, wisdom is not in DNA, so the process becomes 'recycled' upon one's death - the 'wisdom clock' is reset to zero.

A society can 'fake' wisdom if its stable and its members feel very connected to each other, such as existed in hunter gather tribal groups millennia ago. Modern society, i.e., the last 10,000 years of human existence, has traded the social stability that come with consensus and interconnectedness for the comfort and security of agriculture, and now, technologies undreamed of before now.

Society is set up to make this system of agriculture and now industry work smoothly. The un-intended consequences have been the undermining of the intimate social experience a tribal life offers its 'brethren'. Absent this intimate environment, we all end up with a greater sense of 'personal independence'. This carries with it increased sense of isolation and insecurity.

Insecurity is the fulcrum of folly. Thus, as long as society remains addicted to its perks (comfort and security) we are not going to find the degree of balance which we'd all like to. Of course, this addiction to comfort and security is instinctive, so... so much for that.

I see only one 'silver lining' (see bottom of Ethic essay) in this 10,000+ year detour we've made, and that is modern medicine's ability to increase life span enough so more people have an opportunity to 'grow' enough wisdom to make a difference in human culture. I'm afraid though we were probably born hundreds of years to early to really see that happen. There are some big bumps along the way before things settle down. But, heck, even a few thousand years to correct the problem agriculture wrought is not long, historically speaking. So, I keep telling myself, be patient... that's a sign of wisdom.

Geees, once I get typing it's hard to stop. I'm pooped...

By the way Allandnone, I appreciate your probings. I too was once an electronic engineer... so, me thinks we have similar minds.

Lynn Cornish · April 2005

Coincidentally, I was reading Gil Frondsal's book "The Issue at Hand - Essays on Buddhist Mindfulness Practice", the chapter on wisdom. He says "the Buddhist tradition distinguishes 3 kinds of wisdom: wisdom acquired though learning, reflection and developing meditation." He goes on to say "People sometimes hold wisdom in opposition to knowledge, undervaluing study. But in Buddhism, the knowledge that comes from learning is appreciated as a form of wisdom." He ends the chapter by saying that "study, reflection and developing meditation strengthen the practice of mindfulness."

So we're back to mindfulness again...

Carl · April 2005

[cite] Gil Frondsal's book:[/cite]...wisdom acquired though learning, reflection and developing meditation

...in Buddhism, the knowledge that comes from learning is appreciated as a form of wisdom.

...study, reflection and developing meditation strengthen the practice of mindfulness.

These point out a distinction between Mr. Frondsal's sense of Buddhism and my 'Taoist' view of nature. Allow me to prattle on a bit about this...

Knowledge is a very important 'commodity' in civilization, as is study and learning. These promise power and success, and keep the system chugging along; if we don't keep propping up the 'values' the paradigm pushes, it will collapse and we will be tossed overboard into a ocean of dark mystery. We would be stripped of the belief in our special status as intelligent beings in charge of our lives, i.e. free will and all that it implies. Yikes! :shock:

It is my observation that the popularity of a viewpoint correlates to how well that viewpoint make people feel safe and/or special (among other things), which explains why the Taoist point of view has never been, and will never be, palatable to many, i.e., popular.

Lynn Cornish · April 2005

Knowledge is a very important 'commodity' in civilization, as is study and learning. These promise power and success, and keep the system chugging along.

...nothing wrong with that. My hope is that, through mindfulness, we can see through the complicated constructs of our world and maybe get a glimpse of what is real.

Allandnone · April 2005

I think if you are looking for a place where it all begins and you want peace of mind, you want the Tao. If you want to focus on reality that you experience everyday, I think you need the Four Noble Truths to keep a focus on what is happening. In my opinion, the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tsu are integrated within Zen Buddhism. The little history that I know, which is very little, is that Buddhism is an off shoot of Hinduism, which migrated to China where it became more practical. The Japanese picked it up brought it home, added there own touches to it and it became Zen. I am not familar with the history of the development of Taoism or Chuang Tsu. The Tao Te Ching in my opinion is the most beautiful "poetry" I have experienced.

If you keep studying eastern philosophy you will find close similarities with the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. For me, I need to keep studying and investigating and integrating my learnings. There are others who do not need to do this, they just know! What is interesting is I desire to learn what is infinite with a finite life. Perhaps, It is just like the moth attracted to the fire, but at least now I realize what I am doing. And as I am writing to you, this brings us back to free-will. Do we really have it?

So what is all this rambling about? Enjoy the journey, that is where it is all at! And of course, I write this as a follow human being trying to make sense out of non-sense.
Peace and Joy

Carl · April 2005

[cite] Lynn Cornish:[/cite]

Knowledge is a very important 'commodity' in civilization, as is study and learning. These promise power and success, and keep the system chugging along.

...nothing wrong with that. My hope is that, through mindfulness, we can see through the complicated constructs of our world and maybe get a glimpse of what is real.

My thought is that as long as humanity touts the value of knowledge, how can we bring ourselves to accept its profoundly shallow insignificance? The two views evoke conflicting emotions, don't they?

The only true 'knowledge' I've found is knowing the depth of my own ignorance, which I perceive more clearly day by day. I'm going to be a blithering idiot by the time I kick the bucket! As chapter 71 put it:

[chref=71]To know yet to think that one does not know is best;
Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty. [/chref]

Geeez, I'm going to start coming across as one of those Bible thumping / quoting evangelists aren't I. Okey, I know.... what do you mean going to? Anyway, I've got to try to catch up with buddy1 and his record number of posts!

duirtree · April 2005

How did Taoism begin? Good question.
Briefly, Taoism began with Chinese civilisation, and was very Shamanic in origin. Over time there have been many offshoots and even full-on churches established...All this, long before Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching....
For more on Taoism (the way, not the book) I would reccommend Taoism by Eva Wong, Everyday Tao by Deng Ming-Dao and The tao of health, sex and longevity by Daniel Reid.

Joe · April 2005

Lynn mentioned learning and reflection, with Buddhism and mindfulness practice. Carl talks about the foibles of valuing knowledge. And I agree with both.

Most of my life has been acquiring knowledge, details, as if that will bring me contentment. (Anyone here think that's true!) Having the answer, being in control, and foolishly feeling that I'm better than others if I can seem more knowledgeable. (Don't we hate to admit that we probably all do this at one time or another!)

And my "study" of Taoism and Buddhism helps me see the futility in this. If I think I have the answer, the knowledge, I'm surely missing the point, the big picture. For me that comes in all forms, and is ultimately pursuing desire's illusions, and not paying attention to reality.

Now back to Lynn's point about learning and reflection. As I've been "studying" Buddhism more intently over the past year, I've really connected to the Insight Meditation approach, if you will. And there have been times where I've looked at it as if I can just read and understand correctly the "knowledge" shared in the many books available, then I'll "get it" and be more content, more wise, etc.

But what I see as the true learning is the reflecting on my life each day, and recognizing how various experiences are examples of the ideas put forth in Buddhism and Taoism. That experiential level of change, that I think of as happening on a "cellular" level. The reflection helps me remember how reality has actually transpired, and how my desires (and resulting illusions) didn't match reality, no matter how sure I was that things should go the way I thought they should. I can't latch onto anything as, yes, this is the ultimate truth.

As I'm sure we've all seen, the true learning and wisdom comes from the hard times, the letting go of ways of approaching life that just don't work, that don't hold to reality. This is reflected in what the Tao Te Ching says about "circumstances bring them to maturity". And Buddhism speaks to everyone needing to find/experience their own path - no one can do it for you, no one can tell you how it should be done. No one can take your actual steps on your path - the best they can do is perhaps point out a few guideposts they've encountered on their own journey.

Allandnone · May 2005

Is it possible that we are obtaining "Wisdom" by implementing right Understanding and right Mindedness? Right Understanding is seeing the real world and Right Mindedness is bringing respect and honor to what we do as we understand reality.

Is it possible that we are doing some sort of Ethics Training as we utilize right Speech, right Action and right Living? Right Speech is what we say and right action is what we do, and right Living is how we manifest our lives.

Is it possible that right Effort, right Attentiveness and right Concentration is Mediation Training? Right Effort being hard work and committment and right Attentiveness and right Concentration is practicing being in the Now.

I think the answer is yes to all these questions.

It is my opinion that how the above information is processed and what infomation is processed is a function of our Personality Dynamic. So part of our journey is to understand who we are, to understand the human being. Is not that what Buddha accomplished?

Cheers

Lynn Cornish · May 2005

Ohymygod! All these words. My head is spinning.

I am the last person in the world to defend knowledg/learning. The person who knows me best says that I am not only not intellectual, I am anti-intellectual. : D

That said, I find that reading spiritual books (books on Buddhism, Taoism) reminds me to be in touch with that which cannot be described in words, which I experience through meditation. So, for me, in my personal experience, study strengthens the practice of mindfulness.

My experience is that self-knowledge gets me nowhere. It's interesting and can connect me to others socially/emotionally, but spiritually--so what!

/~\

Allandnone · May 2005

As few words as possible. If one wants to be one with the Tao, you have to get beyond the symbolism of the Tao.
Cheers

Lynn Cornish · May 2005

" "

Carl · May 2005

[cite] Lynn Cornish:[/cite]I find that reading spiritual books (books on Buddhism, Taoism) reminds me to be in touch with that which cannot be described in words, which I experience through meditation. So, for me, in my personal experience, study strengthens the practice of mindfulness.

I would suggest that we use such books, i.e., "dead man's words" as Chuang Tzu put it, in leu of the deeply personal and continuous interaction we use to have long long ago when we were ignorant, uneducated, unread, illiterate, hunter and gathering 'monkeys'. In that ancestral condition we 'tuned in' to each other and received constant silent and subtle role modeling from those who had lived a few years and had 'learned through living' realities such as: the cause of suffering is desire, or [chref=16]woe to him who wilfully innovates [/chref].

I'm not suggesting that we are going to return to that primal situation, not should we. But, to understand what we have lost in the 'trade up' to civilization and 'knowledge' would probably be a healthy step for our species to take.

As it is now we are rather lost in our own species centric, culture centric sense of superiority (vanity), and we end up with "it's the word of God", type notions (science shares equally in this in its own 'objective way', I should add). Our fantasy full ideals of the written word has turned language into our mind's prison.

Speaking of species centric-ness, older and wiser not only applies to humans; the true wisdom of 'learning through living' applies to all animals, and not only the naked one that refers to itself as H. sapiens sapiens. ( sapient >adjective formal wise, or attempting to appear wise. -ORIGIN from Latin sapere 'be wise' )

Lynn Cornish · May 2005

Speaking of species centric-ness, older and wiser not only applies to humans; the true wisdom of 'learning through living' applies to all animals

I have 2 yellow labrador retrievers: one is 9, the other 1. The older one, Alex, reads his humans like books and knows how to tell us what he wants. He so gets dancing, laughter and even smiles! His wisdom is that he gets the most joy out of his little family of dogs, cats and humans. The younger one, Eddie, knows nothing! He is barely socialized. When I give hima treat, he accidentally bites my finger! He runs away and doesn't come back when it's time, so then we hesitate to let him go. Since we are older, we are more patient and are just waiting for him to 'get it.' That's my training method; it drives visitors crazy.

Allandnone · May 2005

Isn't this an example of why we do not need faith, we have experience. We experience love, hate, joy and sorrow etc. And if we are really fortunate, we experience the TAO.
Peace & Joy

Carl · May 2005

[cite] Allandnone:[/cite]Isn't this an example of why we do not need faith, we have experience.

I don't know really. But, I won't let that stop me.

I find it helps to view every facet of human behavior as a symptom (an effect) of something deeper within. And, more poignantly, a symptom of something we feel missing from our life.

Necessity drives actions, both physical and mental. Which, come to think of it, make all action actually re-action to perceived necessity. Perceived necessity means what we subjectively feel we need. Thus, if I really feel I need a Cadillac to be happy, I'll toil away until I get one. Even though, in the larger sense of life, a Cadillac is hardly a necessity. It seems to me that reality is always and only subjective - in the eye of the beholder. Objective reality, on the other hand, is the 'reality' that we 'know' to be 'true'.

So, do we "need faith". Well, if you feel you do, then you do, just like the Cadillac example above. Of course, to many, "faith" and a "Cadillac" are totally different; the former being 'spiritual' and the later being 'material'. What would a post from me be without borrowing from the 'good book'...[chref=1] These two are the same, But diverge in name as they issue forth.[/chref]

I expect the same view holds true for "experience" and "faith". I just can't escape that old [chref=56]mysterious sameness [/chref]

Oh me, oh my...

Lynn Cornish · June 2005

I need to retract something I said, or clarify it or something. When I said self-knowledge gets me nowhere, I meant the psychoanalytical type of self-knowledge: I am like this because my parents did that. But (big but!) self-knowledge in the form of awareness in the present moment is how to develop wisdom, just as Carl says. When I can be grounded in awareness, then my resistance/attraction to 'reality' and the associated emotions can be seen more objectively, right in the moment I am experiencing them. What a blessing that is. There is some freedom there.

It's hard to write about this, isn't it?

I also agree that if I lived in a spiritual community I wouldn't need to read Buddhist writings, unless I had trouble falling asleep! ; )

Coming here and reading what you all have written is heart warming. Thanks.

Lynn Cornish · June 2005

(sorry..I got an error when I posted my last message so I did it again and then it was here twice and I don't know how to delete one so please don't bother to read this.)

Allandnone · June 2005

"I also agree that if I lived in a spiritual community I wouldn't need to read Buddhist writings, unless I had trouble falling asleep! "
I am in agreement with you. It would be wonderful to be in a spirtual community that was not trying to sell that they have the answer and everyone else is wrong etc.

I also agrre that trying to put in words descriptions about Taoism or Buddism is very difficult, and I think impossible, but that is all we have to communicate to each other is this dualistic language called English.

Lynn Cornish · June 2005

I knew somewhere on this message board someone mentioned insight meditation, and it was Joe in this thread. We've started a little group up here in Sonora and are listening to CD's of workshops taught there on Vipasana meditation. It has really tuned up my practice and I am very grateful.

Allandnone: you might look into the Insight Mediation Center: http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/. I love that it is run totally on donations. Everything there is free--not even a suggested donation. And all other disciplines are respected. I think this organization is above reproach. So much so that I send more money than I normally would just because I so admire their integrity.

I've been meaning to thank Joe for his post of April 30. Better late than never. Thank you for putting your experience into words. All I can say is a heartfelt "Ditto" to everything you said.

Joe · June 2005

I only have to look at my past, to see how everything has always been colored by my perceptions. Both the ?good and bad? aspects have revolved around how I perceived the situation. I wonder ? maybe I?m most likely to have ?accurate? perceptions about reality, when I?m neutral about the situation. Anytime I can identify a positive or negative feeling to a situation then I?ve already got clouded perception. (Maybe I need a good magnifying glass!)

Faith can be a slippery fish. I often ?feel? that I?ve got faith in Taoist/Buddhist principles. But if I really look at that faith, it still involves my perceptions, my desires. (Talk about trying to lift yourself up by your bootstraps!) There?s always more to let go of. ?To know, yet to think that one does not know is the best?.

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Desire-Nature Itself

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