... Or Like Lemmings to the Sea

Hi Topher,

So, the juices flowing again. Due to the changing of the seasons no doubt?
[cite] Topher:[/cite]I still think that what we say about it has more to do with how we feel about it than what it actually is...
B-b-b-but, “how we feel” is rooted in our biology. We evolved with an ability to perceive our environment and to interpret those perceptions in such a way as to promote survival. The distinction lies in 'my' evolutionary axiom: Nature didn’t need us to evolve a capability to know what “actually is”, rather, it only needed us to evolve strategies that enhanced survival fitness. Although, that doesn’t prove we can’t know “what it actually is”. It should put a shadow of serious doubt on what we [chref=72]think that we know[/chref].

For example, a fly’s eye sees a multitude of images from all angels which help it evade the fly swatter. If a fly had a brain it would think the external world was actually a mosaic collage of multiple duplicated images. It’s opinion would feel ‘true’ from its point of view. Our opinions feel ‘true’ from our point of view. And that point of view is rooted in biology [chref=1]mystery upon mystery[/chref].
I am "great". That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
No you’re not. You’re just as miserable as the rest of us… :lol:

Comments

  • edited December 1969
    Perhaps we who are drawn to a Taoist point of view tend to be innately - biologically - wary of following the [chref=20]multitude[/chref]. We may also be less inclined to form habits, whether 'good or bad' (that's not to say we aren't prone to chemically addictive habits, naturally).

    Being social animals, most folks easily fall behind 'leaders', be they people or cultural paradigms. They follow the tried and true trails laid down through the wilderness of experience, and in so doing tame some aspects of that wilderness. Heck, this is the norm for all social animals from ants on up.

    However, natural diversity, being what it is, leaves some individuals less able to follow the tried and true. Being less able to mold ourselves to conventional ways leaves open the chance that we'll stumble upon a 'better' way. Nature needs a few 'pioneers' in the off chance that changing circumstances require a more adaptive approach. We [chref=20]drowsy and muddled[/chref] stumblers are more likely to 'find' it - if the time is ripe.

    Looking at the world around me, I reckon the time is ripe! Just being the odd ball you are contributes to the whole in some [chref=21]indistinct and shadowy[/chref] way. So, take a moment and pat yourself on the back. :)
  • edited December 1969
    However, natural diversity, being what it is, leaves some individuals less able to follow the tried and true.

    But doesn't the Tao say to keep your wheels in the old ruts or something like that?
    Just being the odd ball you are contributes to the whole

    Hey, thanks!

    I see myself as a doubting Thomas. If something doesn't make sense to me I just can't buy it, even if the person saying it is a priest or a teacher or the Prez, and I think I was born that way. I remember being that way in catecism class at the age of 7. I think I could be a follower if I respected the leader. I respect you, Carl, and think of you as my teacher.

    I think it might be a lot easier to be more mainstream but it would be far less interesting. It would be easier in the sense that you would "fit in" with many more people and would feel more a part of the culture...and you would know who all these people they talk about on TV are. It would be less interesting because there's lots of bigger and better stuff to ponder than what Lindsey Lohan is doing (I knew that name!).

    It feels like there might be some egoism lying behind enjoying being an odd ball (not that there's anything wrong with that). What do you think?
  • edited December 1969
    I found it. I'm getting to be an old pro at this:

    Chapter 4
    The way is empty, yet use will not drain it.
    Deep, it is like the ancestor of the myriad creatures.

    Blunt the sharpness;
    Untangle the knots;
    Soften the glare;
    Let your wheels move only along old ruts.

    Darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there.
    I know not whose son it is.
    It images the forefather of God.
  • edited December 1969
    [cite] Lynn Cornish:[/cite]
    However, natural diversity, being what it is, leaves some individuals less able to follow the tried and true.
    1) But doesn't the Tao say to keep your wheels in the old ruts or something like that?

    2) I see myself as a doubting Thomas.

    3) I respect you, Carl, and think of you as my teacher.

    4) It feels like there might be some egoism lying behind enjoying being an odd ball (not that there's anything wrong with that). What do you think?
    1) Yes, good, you found the chapter, but the Chinese translates more closely to this:

    The way flows through, yet never fills.
    Deep, it is like the beginning of all things that exist.
    Relax the focus, merge the differences, as though they are dust.
    Profoundly deep and clear as though it exists.
    We know not what caused it,
    It resembles a supreme before being.


    To me, this closely parallels the idea of [chref=56]mysterious sameness[/chref].

    2) This is probably why a 'Taoist point of view' appeals to you. Hmm, I suppose we should say a 'Taoist curve of view'.

    3) Only because I'm utterly [chref=20]muddled, foolish and uncouth[/chref]. Coming from that place I'm saying what you are already 'hearing'. So, I'm not your teacher really. Perhaps, I'm your spokesman. :wink:

    4) Enjoying to be who you are is natural. That is something we can all do when we quit expecting ourselves to be someone else. Although, it can take some time to realize we can't be anything other that who we naturally are. My word, that sounds soooo obvious; alas, myriad illusions of 'otherwise' fill the mind's space. That's 'education' for you. Nothing changes until we [chref=64]learn to be without learning[/chref]
  • edited December 1969
    I remember as a kid following the pack because I was told to believe that it would lead me to eternal salvation with Jesus. But eventually, I became very skeptical of that view... not necessarily because I thought it was wrong, it just didn't mesh with my view anymore. I didn't agree. But even then, I was never part of the "normal" crowd.

    Rather than ever really following the "normal" crowd, I almost wound up the opposite. There was a point in my high school mini-rebellious phase that I decided I was going to be the opposite of ANYTHING normal. At the time I didn't realize that what I was doing was just joining another crowd... the opposite crowd... but a crowd nonetheless... a following.

    I thought about it first when I asked one of my friends why he did a particular thing (I don't remember what). His response was "because none of the preppies do it." So, we too were a 'clique' ... a body of followers following something... it just happened to be something else. I thought it was kind of silly to base my actions around doing things differently just for the sake of doing them to be different... especially when the "preppies" started adopting bits of their fashion sense from the "outcasts" style. Then what were the outcasts to do in order to maintain extreme polarity?

    I decided that it was all the same. I decided I needed to do/wear/think what I wanted to; what felt right for me... regardless of what 'clique' it fell into. It was this attitude that actually got me more friends and a start towards more understanding of others, and a more tolerant view of the world around me. So by not "fitting in" with anyone, I kind of fit in with everyone... yet no one... in some way... or something. I think there must be a Tao Te Ching verse or Tao view that could put that idea into better words.

    I guess your sentence on the egoism of being an oddball is what made me start thinking about this. When I was pretending to be more of an "oddball" or "outcast" than I was, I was proud of it... but only because it got me the attention (sometimes negative) and the judgement I was kind of asking for. But a lot of it wasn't really me. It was that intentional opposite thing that everyone else in my group was doing. Rebel follwers I guess we were. But pretending to like the metal band Slipknot because they are soooooo dark, when in fact I had never even heard them at the time... that I was not proud of... turns out I don't like their music. Soon I felt like a hypocrite. But then, I became my true oddball... my inner oddball has been revealed, and I am happy with that. I no longer rub in in people's faces that "Hey! I'm different! Crazy!" like I used to when I was posing as a semi-punk goth troubled teen kid. But it's more like "Oh, you didn't know? I am different."


    Anyway, Mr. Rogers an all those cheesy kid-show hosts I grew up with turned out to be right! I just needed to be me!
  • edited December 1969
    [cite] ZiggySunshinedust:[/cite]...So by not "fitting in" with anyone, I kind of fit in with everyone... yet no one... in some way... or something. I think there must be a Tao Te Ching verse or Tao view that could put that idea into better words.
    Oh how true! I don't know about "better", but this one says something similar: [chref=65]Mysterious virtue is profound and far-reaching, But when things turn back it turns back with them. Only then is complete conformity realized[/chref]. And the following also applies in a round about way...
    [cite] Lynn Cornish:[/cite]But doesn't the Tao say to keep your wheels in the old ruts or something like that?
    I think of these 'ruts' not as the ruts society (other people) invites, or pushes, us to move along, but more the 'ruts of Dharma'. The thought of moving along other people's ruts brings to mind something from the Bhagavad Gita, 'And do thy duty, even if it be humble, rather than another's, even if it be great. To die in one's duty is life: to live in another's is death'.

    I experience 'ruts' as the [chref=25]silent[/chref] side of consciousness - [chref=52]the light[/chref]. The day to day discernment changes according to circumstances, but the light is [chref=1]constant[/chref]. This [chref=14]thread running through the way[/chref] is the only 'thing' real. The things of life, the transient ebb and flow, 'this' and 'that' come and go. It is really the space around 'this' and 'that' which is eternal and [chref=16]constant[/chref]. That is the [chref=56]old rut[/chref] I move along when [chref=16]I do my utmost to attain emptiness and hold firmly to stillness[/chref].

    I know you know what I mean, i.e., the meditation of each moment. In this context, the 'let your wheels move only along old ruts' and the more literal 'relax the focus, merge the differences, as though they are dust' say the same thing. For me, the literal is more straight forward, so I'm baffled why most translations are so tangential at times when the literal Chinese hits the nail on the head, albeit obscurely. Oh well, being baffled make life interesting!

    Finally, I can't leave without saying... the only 'thing' real is [chref=40]Nothing[/chref]. This is a fine example of the view that [chref=78]straightforward words seem paradoxical[/chref], and also explains why few people are drawn to the Taoist world view.
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