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Newbie asks about Liu I-Ming's first "essential"
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I am hoping to discuss Liu I-ming's "24 Essentials for Students" with others.
The first is "See through things of the world.
If you cannot see through the things of the world
You will sink into an ocean of suffering.
How will you get out?"
I've been thinking about this for about twenty years, and am still not sure what the applications would be!
I look forward to any comments anyone would care to make.
Thank you!
sister
Here's my thought, for what it's worth,...
But is "how will you get out?" the crux of our 'problem'? The key, in my view, is how can we "see through things of the world", or perhaps even deeper, what does it mean to "see through things of the world"? Telling us that if we can't, we "will sink..." is jumping ahead of that which [chref=64]starts from beneath one's feet[/chref].
Jumping ahead of ourselves just complicates the simple, and makes difficult the [chref=70]easy[/chref]. Alas, we excel at doing that don't we! Our mind leaps hither and yon looking for its next tasty treat.
But I have NOT figured out how to navigate this forum as yet!
Nonetheless, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to give some concrete examples of seeing through the things of the world.
Is Liu simply referring to ephemerality? I know he studied both Confucianism and Buddhism extensively before committing as a Daoist, and perhaps that's why I like him so much.
No, I deeply don't get it. "Seeing through" gives the image of some diaphonous curtain, beyond which is reality. Looking INTO the things of the world is certainly profitable. As is "always allow yourself to have desires, in order to observe its manifestations." To know Dao, surely we must respect and investigate, well, grasses! Snails! Viruses! Prokaryotes and nebulae. One needs to go back, become an eternal undergraduate, and take every course in every department. (Graduate school is a waste of time.) (And perhaps a good highschool is even better than a good undergrad program.)
Well! Are "things of the world" fleas and elephants and mitochondriae?
Or does Liu mean "worldy" values like money and power and prestige?
I think the "ocean of suffering" is a Buddhist hell, no? That part seems self explanatory. It's the "things of the world" and seeing through them, that continues to seem remote and irrelevant, to me.
I apologize for my dissatisfaction so far. It may take me a while to get oriented here.
Thank you.
sister
(2) I'll have to talk it over with Mr Liu to know his 'bottom line'
I've found that understanding what is going on, like seeing how nature [chref=65]hoodwink[/chref] us, for example, makes it easier to [chref=2]practice the teaching that uses no words[/chref]. And, one of the best hoodwinks in nature's arsenal is pleasure....
The source of our pleasure is the cause of our pain; the highs of our joys propel the lows of our sorrow. By 'our', I mean all living things, be they ducks, mosquitoes, or humans. In fact, for me, 'our' includes every living thing down to bacteria (and even viruses, I suppose).
A major source of human pleasure and joy is linked to our brains and the thoughts it thinks. Thus, [chref=71]To know yet to think that one does not know is best; not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty[/chref],... and sorrow.
So, as I see it, believing what we think makes it impossible to "see through the things of the world". Simply said, the "things" we see are our own thoughts, and the [chref=43]words[/chref] and [chref=32]names[/chref] from which they are made. 'It' is simpler and easier than we are able to think. And so thought continues to go round and round in circles struggling to put 'its finger' on it,... [chref=14]the image that is without substance[/chref].
A Tip: It is helpful to be [chref=15]tentative[/chref] in trusting word meaning. Believing that words mean what they say traps us into larger illusions that befuddle our lives. Correlating words helps break down the mind's blind faith in words. This process is [chref=70]very easy to understand and very easy to put into practice, yet...[/chref] ironically,... but give it a shot. When it works, the mind, having nothing on which to hang, can't help but "see through the things of the world", and into the [chref=5]void[/chref]!
I agree with Carl that what we see is our own thoughts is what we take as real but I wouldn't take it as an enemy but as a friend. How else can we work on it if it wasn't like that?
I am trying to get in touch with the sister and I can't seem to find any contact details on her. Can someone please help me find her details so I can ask some questions. Thanks :yy:
Oh, I don't see thought as an "enemy". It's a totally natural result of being endowed with the kind of brain we have. My only point is that when we trust what we think is true, we are seeing the things of the world, as Liu I-ming might say. This is a reinforcing cycle where in what we "see" are names and words, which in turn determines what we "see". We become ensnared in an illusion our own making.
I find it easier to see through the things of the world when I take what I think is true with a grain of salt. When I no longer need to know, I feel a sense of knowing that is simpler that can be named or spoken of.
By the way, I have no information on sister other than what you see here.
For many months (I am a newbie) I have struggled to understand how one can actually do this in everyday life? When Liu says one should guide desires form disharmony to harmony, what harmony is he talking about? He also STRESSES on the fact that one should find a teacher to know all of this but recently I found in his commentary on the I Ching, that he wants students to empty the mind first and then find a teacher. HOW CAN ONE EMPTY THE MIND?
BTW I have read only Liu and it is only Liu that I accord with highly... In all his books (translated in English), I have heard him rejecting the sidetracks and I for one don't do any practices (I mean physical ones). I know many practitioners of Tao do one or the other but I haven't met anyone who practices celestial rather than the physical. I would like to know what is your opinion on that. Thanks
Well fatguyslim, lets see if I can't dissuade you of that view... ;-)
Doesn't this suggests we have free will?
The way I see it, harmony is rather synonymous with balance. "Desires not to desire" is the way to head towards greater balance. Buddha's "Let your sole desire be the performance of your duty" is another way to put it.
I look at life from more of a symptom's point of view. Those who do "practices" (disciplines of any sort, whether physical or otherwise) do so because that makes them feel more balanced.
Our sense of imbalance is either created by, or amplified by, thought. Physical hardship helps ground thought. Poor people who have to deal hardship daily have many fewer existential thoughts. With relative wealth comes the 'freedom' to search for life meaning. When one is starving, life meaning is in one's belly. Therefore the sage is for the belly, not for the eye.
Although our existential difficulties really began when thought began to feel real. This creates desire (desire = innate animal need + thought). We end up desiring ideals we think bring us contentment. This is somewhat ironic in that it is desire (inborn need + thought) that drives worry and discontentment. This is why the Tao Te Ching points to the teaching that uses no words and such.
Both are equally ludicrous. Prescriptions like this are common in the spiritual / philosophical arena. Seen as a symptom, this tells me how widespread the human desire for answers and solutions, i.e., just do such and such and salvation is yours. All of these 'answers and solutions' can work as placebos for those who believe and work toward their ideal. Not perfect, but enough to keep hope alive.
The only other 'solution', as I see it, discounting the reality of thought. This makes life feel indistinct and shadowy, which for many is a case where 'the cure is worse than the disease'. You might say, the question is the answer, the problem is the solution. Or put another way, the question and the problem are real, the answers and the solutions are illusion.
This may seem like a bleak way to approach this issue. However, if one can endure 'the way it is', then the way (best described in the Tao Te Ching, especially the Chinese original) is enough.
The more heavily one believes what one thinks, the less "empty the mind". When thoughts carry the same weight as morning mist the mind is approaching empty. Chapter 71 point to this a bit:
To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
Exactly so, although I expect you wrote that as a humorous quip.
I find the symptoms point of view returns my mind from what it thinks it knows, back toward what it thinks it does not know. It is a process of continuously unlearning what I just learned and thought I knew.
This process does keep "emptying the mind" (the purported goal). Short of having a lobotomy or getting stone dead drunk, that's as empty as it can get I reckon. Human animals think. It is our Dharma, our way. The challenge is not letting it get in our way.