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Can of worms
One final note: the reason I brought up this whole language thing is that, true or not, what I have found is that where ever I am stuck or troubled in life, the source of it has always been revealed in my language, thoughts and speech. What I am creating for myself in life, is always revealed in my language. I believe that my language is actually the source of it (which is why my language reveals it) but whether that is true or not, doesn't matter.
What I mean is that when I have come out from trouble and looked back, I could see how what I kept creating for my life was in my language. When I created something new (a paradigm shift), I was able to get beyond that point in life. Often this has happened when someone else spoke something and my mind was opened to it and I began creating myself newly from it. It has also happened from the events in life where a new idea came to me from apparently no where and I began crreating myself from it.
Both of these has actually happened both for the better and the worse. That is why it is important to recognize "true" principles. If you follow incorrect ones, they will lead you to trouble. Fortunately, you will recognize trouble when you find it (even if it takes you years) and you will begin to seek another way. There is no harm in this process. It is there for this very purpose.
What I mean is that when I have come out from trouble and looked back, I could see how what I kept creating for my life was in my language. When I created something new (a paradigm shift), I was able to get beyond that point in life. Often this has happened when someone else spoke something and my mind was opened to it and I began creating myself newly from it. It has also happened from the events in life where a new idea came to me from apparently no where and I began crreating myself from it.
Both of these has actually happened both for the better and the worse. That is why it is important to recognize "true" principles. If you follow incorrect ones, they will lead you to trouble. Fortunately, you will recognize trouble when you find it (even if it takes you years) and you will begin to seek another way. There is no harm in this process. It is there for this very purpose.
Comments
Well, with hope that this doesn?t cause anyone's heart any disturbance (please feel free to delete this post, i will not be offended)
im here to kick off another round of 'gimme gimme'...
Im just thirsty, plain and simple.
Right.
* Miracles * - By whatever process (ritual) or in whoever's name (faith)... sometimes... the 'un-explainable' happens, that which steps outside the apparent laws of... stuff.
Now then, we could begin with "what the heck IS 'explainable'" and begin talking about belief in our perception and how thats all an illusion, which im realising more and more each day.
But for the most part, a brick wall acts like brick wall, whether i perceive not being able to walk thru it or not.
In the 'animal kingdom' perhaps all sorts of 'laws' go breaking themselves all over the place, its just that animals dont question them, they just be, whatever that is they just be it.
(ha! conjures up all sorts of pictures in my mind, monkey stuck in pit, shocked monkey jumps away from suddenly appearing banana)
One could bring aspects of quantum or electro mechanics into the topic (which i know nothing about) and state how all things are all inter-connected or not necessarily in one place at a time.. blah blah blah... :? sigh
I was brought up in a joyful and active 'born-again-christian' home where i had the wonderful privilege of a 'spiritual foundation' and i was a fervent little boy.
I broke my toe.
Yep, broke it in gym class at school.
Broken!
X-ray, yep, broken. snapped... Look! just there.
I couldn?t put any pressure on it for the pain i had, doctor said it would be weeks.
My folks ran a house group, worship / bible reflection...and prayer.
That night, lets all pray for his toe to 'feel better'
Can you guess where this is going...
im not kidding.
It was right near the start, before anyone had got settled into the "we're praying now" moment. There was no music to build an atmosphere, and im pretty sure nobody there actually had the faith that it would happen.
I remember the vaguest realization as they prayed that it could happen, and i wonder if it has... wiggle, hmm, wiggle... hey... wiggle wiggle.
I asked them to hang on a sec, and i ran across the room, to the shouts of my mum to stop it, and be careful, it might hurt again in a minute.
Not broke,
back to the hospital,
X-ray, nope, not broken.
I suppose i could count myself privileged that such a thing happened to me.
But you can also see why my parents find it almost impossible to conceive of the idea that i dont hold the same beliefs as them anymore.
They're like, "But you've SEEN it!! You KNOW it!!" - that "spiritual foundation" was also the cause of the deepest pain i've ever known when as i grew i had to morn the loss of a saviour who loved me and accept that there was 'nobody' in charge.
Im sorry that this is very self indulgent to waffle on like this. Hope you find it interesting.
But I am curious as to your take on this slightly awkward subject.
Again, i understand totally if it is ignored(deleted) I only recently feel ready to look at this again myself, as it has been very important for me to begin to accept the way things actually are and not the way i feel they should be.
Praying for healing sounds a little like missing the point to me, and i feel i can say that cos ive truly experienced it first hand...
Im not talking about 'techniques' that improve your health, im talking about *Poof* and there it is.
Voodoo, rituals, prayer, collective agreement, the untapped powers of the mind... gee!!! who knows why... but sometimes it does happen.
I dont need to know. Im not expecting answers now now now, like a greedy kid. I just find this interesting, as i spend a lot of my awareness impartially observing my judgments, and watching my desire to make things they way i feel they should be, that (the notion that) having faith that having faith in a miraculous change is possible, could make it possible... pfff, a bit confusing.
(Acts 16:31 springs to mind,
or perhaps, Before Abraham was... i am... and so am i.
I will just say one more thing tho...
the ONLY way i see this 'fitting in' to the Taoist view is that miraculous and non-miraculous [chref=2]produce[/chref] each other. They are both Natural. Maybe all those 'bad-luck' moments i've had along the way are the miracles i dont want to 'see'
now for another banana.
It's a miracle anyone post on this site. So first of all, on behalf of the countless few, I thank for your thoughtful thoughts.
Clearly our brain's draws distinctions, e.g., 'back' and 'white', 'ordinary' and 'miraculous'. But, can we believe (trust) those distinction, or are we being [chref=65]hoodwinked[/chref] by biology? From a [chref=56]mysterious sameness[/chref] point of view, we see these opposites as co-producing sides of that coin I'm always referring to. But, it doesn't end there, only the words do.
[chref=32]The way is for ever nameless....
....Only when it is cut are there names.
As soon as there are names
One ought to know that it is time to stop.[/chref]
Opps, :oops: so should I stop writing any further here? No! The distinctions, the names, the speaking, the thinking serves a need - organizational, social, dreaming, you name it. Will [chref=71]thinking that one knows will lead to difficulty[/chref]? Yes!
So, saying miracles are real will make 'spiritual' people happy and 'science' people roll their eyes. These two 'tribes' [chref=66]contend[/chref] with each other as to what is 'believable' - "yes it isn't"; "no it isn't"; "yes it isn't"; "no it isn't"; ... ad infinitum. Each group sees what they need to see, names it and uses it for 'mind furniture'. Like flags, uniforms, and [chref=57]taboos[/chref], this 'furniture' serves a powerful bonding role for each tribe.
So what is real? I prefer to regard what I perceive as a symptom of something deeper, which in turn is a symptom of something still deeper, ... ad infinitum. This draw my mind inward, downward, onward... ad infinitum, until I am [chref=10]capable of not knowing anything.[/chref]
As to particular perceptions, I've found it best to [chref=71]to think that I don't know[/chref]. All is in flux, coming into view, going out of view.
Now, as to 'miracles', especially the surprising and unique ones. Observed from a correlations point of view:
life=light=shallow=surprising=exciting=unique=temporary=illusion=I=need=take
death=dark=deep=expected=calming=common=continuous=reality=we=content=give
So, by that reckoning, life correlates to miracle, and death correlates to common place. Have I danced around the subject enough... Ok, one more spin around the floor... Wheee...
It is hard to separate what the mind wants to see and what it sees. What it sees reflect what it needs to see. So, the notion of an objective reality is an oxymoron. To correlate:
Something=illusion=gain=objective=clear=certain=hard=change=straight
Nothing=truth=loss=subjective=shadowy=tentative=soft=constant=curved
I kinda should'a known that you wouldn't give more weight to one side than the other,
and i guessed you would remain impartial with an encouraging yet sensitive delivery after my telling you about my 'out-of-the-ordinary' experience.
I knew you wouldnt stomp on a little bug.
So that was well handled i must say.
Tho i am slightly dizzy now.
(realising that one is seeing only what one wants to see makes me doubt what i thought i could see in what you were saying, as im probably just seeing what i would like you to have been saying... see?
I have such a great time when i get those little moments of understanding,
either when i suddenly spot/feel a screaming parallel/metaphor from scripture (which so soothingly sets me free from itself, its old hold and untangles my [chref=4]knots[/chref])
or just during my day when i relax and steady myself enough to return to the moment, words disappear and im momentarily 'not' or not trying (until i notice and it slips away when i try and keep it)
These little treats of understanding are a bit like when you've been stood in a puddle for ages without knowing, and that moment... where the awareness sinks in... its been slowly soaking thru my socks for who knows how long... and then, ah HA! there it is.
When I was almost a teenager and still a fervent christian, i had a real sense that the 'words' of the scriptures/sermons were liberating yet limiting.(for me)
It seemed like we were focusing on the key rather than exploring beyond the door.
A focal point can be very useful, but its all too easy to get stuck there.
To help blow my own mind
I called it... "The"
I would pray from my heart but my mind meditating on 'The'
Now there's a word i LOVE!!!
it is before... it points to... and it embodies.
it speaks generically (The Camel can survive without water for long periods)
yet it indicates uniqueness (The Sun)
Imagine how surprised i was when six years ago i encountered the Tao Te Ching.
and YipPeee... that only points to it too!!!
The more i let go and immerse, the less i can trip on those things that were a real and very serious struggle for me... like good and evil.
WoOOoo i'm being deceived :shock: :roll: :twisted:
and Carl... the 'free will' illusion was the final straw i needed.
Now its really busted!! and im only 26.
Im so excited to be allowed to know that 'it/The/Tao ' is All.
Potential, source/cause, effect/present expression, all containing yet pervading...
(and it only ever existed Right NoW!... and NoW is Still.)
Now i know im not fooling myself.
And I cant WAIT until i dont think i know again!!
(give me 5 mins and I'll probably forget and start grasping again... which i cant help ofcourse...i just gotta... oops, here we go again)
1) Yes yes, that will do just fine... or are we both seeing in what I am saying what we both coincidently want to see. Is that the same thing? The main point is to be as [chref=15]tentative, hesitant, vacant and murky[/chref] as possible. Whatever gets the job done.
2) "Busted" eh? Good. That wasn't so hard was it? It may be "busted" in my boys, 20 and 17. Well, actually, it may never have gotten fully developed, what with me being their father. So, it may seems a little simpler for them. All they may need to deal with, like you, is getting "so excited".
Questioning the belief in free will was the straw that broke my
"am i just a 'back-slidden' christian who's looking for any answer that suits me best?" , back.
(i love it when folk describe doubting christians like that, those who doubt the application of the words and symbols or like me no longer call themself a christian...
'back-slidden' Ha! i cant wait till i slide all the way back to the source)
Growing up 'knowing' that you know the meaning of life, and that EvErYBoDY else who isnt a christian is wrong and doesnt get it...
and being taught to be 'in the world, but not OF the world' meant to dis-connect from our 'sinful' nature, rather than my fresh understanding of that scripture, it has been the cause of real pain and intense effort to break down a lot of the fences that limited my path.
Like this, 'I' was a plant in a pot with very healthy yummy soil, existing fine.
Should i want for anything more? do i need anything more?
But thru no 'fault' of myself or anyone, i got un-potted.
I could no longer accept a lot of the beliefs that were part and parcel of that 'pot'
Un-potted i was out on my own. and i was starving.
I tried a whole bunch of stuff to find the nourishment i needed.
Some fed me for a while till its flavour no longer satisfied, others made me sick.
The whole way along, i felt that surely it was there all the time.
Surely i dont need a pot, surely i can stop right here, right now, and settle myself, and drink.
But there were a whole lot of fear issues for me.
Heck! i'd seen miracles, what if there actually are 'demons' ?! :shock:
In the busyness of the day id laugh to myself saying that if i believed for a second that there were demons, then id be on the front row of that church!! but when quite and alone i would still myself to meditate, fear would snatch me from returning.
So... now, i feel deep sense of relief that im allowed to let go and accept nature as it truly is... a mixed bag
Thats whats busted. My grip and fear's hold. And now i can [chref=64]start[/chref] to relax as i continue turning back.
As you've pointed out, 'free will' runs so deeply in our psyche that its illusion only really shatters once and for all when one 'knows' it is illusory at an emotional level.
I make no such claim... I'm chippin away at it, but just put TV adverts in front of me or ask me to listen to 'stuck-up' people discussing how they know exactly how everything should be, and i suddenly find it very difficult to accept nature how it is and that they cant help it! :x
and neither can i help wanting to meddle and tell them how they 'shouldnt' be so sure that their view is ultimately correct, and they should realise that there may be a better way like how 'I' see... oh hang on a sec... :oops: !
constantly back to square one, or tying to return to square one.
and one day i might actually live there.
Sigh... just wish i could get some of that wishy washy feeling when i have to queue to at the Bank to pay a bill !! haha
* It helps to remember that you are only 26. I repeat, only. This is the season where [chref=36]you must first set it up[/chref]. As you now see, [chref=1]named[/chref] knowing works great,... up until the moment you need to actually [chref=32]know[/chref].
* It helps to look around at nature. Plunge into it. This guides me more than anything else I know to the [chref=2]teaching that uses no words[/chref]. This practice stirs 'poetic' feelings like...
This ant on 'his' way, zig,
Take me with you, zag,
What's the hurry, stop,
Wow, over there, go...
Turned on the light,
Cockroaches fleeing from fright,
Oh, come on back and visit me,
Tell me all about eternity,
The weeds, the trees,
They have no knees,
So there they stay,
In stillness to pray.
Observing nature 'religiously' eventually ends with the experience of [chref=49] having no mind of your own. You take as your own the mind of the people[/chref] (and ants, and trees, etc). Now, this may not sound all that wonderful, but it works wonders for [chref=4]untangling the knots[/chref] you feel when faced with those "TV adverts" or when you must "listen to 'stuck-up' people discussing how they know exactly how everything should be",... or any of the other irritations in life, big and small. It doesn't remove the pain (naturally!), it just puts it into boundless perspective. Hmmm..., this may not sound all that wonderful either. But heck, [chref=81]truthful words are not beautiful[/chref]. Oh well, such is the 'tao'.