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The Desire To Do vs. the Desire To Be and Have.
[cite] Carl:[/cite]It defies common sense, and yet...
So, it takes some actual experience noticing this 'loss' and 'gain' thing to at least nod our head, Mmmm.....perhaps.... Until that day comes
Yes. And when we see this in one area of life, it doesn't always make a difference in that area of life or carry over to other areas of life. Understanding doesn't necessarily make a difference.
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Humans on the other hand, imagining how we 'could' or 'should' be, trade in the [chref=56]old rut[/chref] of the moment, for the [chref=38]foreknowledge[/chref] of 'tomorrow', our imagined future. We've become overly mind aware, existing in a virtual fantasy reality often out of sync with [chref=57]this[/chref]. Our basic instincts - needs and fears - drive our mind to imagine how much better it would be to be this or have that, and off we go on [chref=53]by-path[/chref] after [chref=53]by-path[/chref].
Moral: Don't trust the mind's dialogue. After all, the [chref=56][mind] who speaks does not know[/chref]! Sure, our mind is going to chatter its head off. However, speaking from personal experience, we need not believe its gossip.
I can do that for about a 1/2 hour after I meditate and then I begin to forget. But I never go back to believing the mind's gossip and that's a help. 8)
Once we have intergrated the concepts the words attempt to convey the words are no longer needed... ideally.
The problem i encounter is that i happen to be a bit of a dopey forgetful kinda guy.
A friend can tell me what they will be doing tommorow, although i am present and truely care enough to register, no sooner have they told me my ongoing attempts to quiet my internal chatter and attain stillness seems to throw the memory of facts baby out with the wordy bathwater.
(making any sense?)
Im certainly not 'overly mind aware' - Carl, how does one plan without words? I guess its a matter of balance (?)
Also, because words were the means by which i innitially founded my pre-conceptions (some of which are obviously necessary, some of which are now useless and only inhibit) i need words like the ones i read here to, like a combination, unlock the hold they have on me. sigh... i wish i could convey what i mean.
I think i mean that while stillness is where best to dwell, i must also use words to ponder or i find that i still have unexamined beliefs and subconscious attatchments that will take a lot longer to erode if i mearly immerse myself in the nothing/everthing. (cue link to Correlations) ;-)
Interesting...I was thinking along the same lines about words, with a little bit of a different slant. When I think the words "return to stillness", for instance, those words really reasonate with me and I do return to stillnesss. Something about the words "returning" and "Turning back is how the way moves" brings peace.
I understand what you mean by needing words to unlock the hold they have and to recognize perconceptions and attachments. Ironic, isn't it? Circular. (I see how confused my mind gets when the procession of thoughts is circular instad of linear...interesting! Our minds must be built to think sequentially.)
I, too, am forgetful which makes it difficult to show that I care about people. I forget what's going on in their lives...I'm lucky if I can remember what's going on in mine. Thanks for the good excuse for this failing! The way I handle it is to tell all new friends how forgetful I am and ask please not to take it personally.
1) Good analogy! I'd add that it is at the emotional level that the "fish are caught". When you know what you know at the sub-thought level, any words which bubble up are simply reflections of that knowing. Of course, that is always the case, i.e., the words we think, the 'understanding' we believe we have is rooted in our emotion. Words are merely symptoms - shadows cast by the flames of our emotion (with desire being one of the 'brightest').
2) Words are not the problem! I mean, if they are, I'm in big trouble
3) When we can immerse ourselves in "nothing/everything", the "attachments" have no place to stick. "Attachments" are never subconscious. Attachments drives us, like a horse which pulls a wagon. We cannot be unaware of the horse. We just don't recognize the horse is a horse - we believe it is 'free will'. The "sub" aspect has more to do with our unwillingness to accept and realize that need and fear ('attachments') drives us. We think we are in control. I guess we call that denial.
I see this whole journey as one into personal self honesty. Seeing ourselves as we are, rather than as we 'think' we are. For how we 'think' we are is but a reflection of how we desire to be, or fear we are. We have an emotional agenda centered around an idea of [chref=7]self[/chref] which pushes thought and inhibits us from seeing 'it' as 'it' is.
It is so ridiculously [chref=70]easy[/chref], and yet,... Like they say, we are our own worst enemy. :shock:
There was a lot to what you said there Carl, thank you.
Yes. I feel understand what you are showing me. Perhaps my use of the word "attachments" gave an alternative angle. Ah, the trouble with words exemplified.
When i said subconscious attatchments, im trying to refer to those sudden reactions one may have to a situation or sound or smell, the "from-out-of-nowhere" pre-conditioned emotional resposes founded at somepoint way back when. The suprise attitudes or opinions towards things that i dont remember forming, that have layed dormant and unchallanged. Subconscious, unaware, not denial.
I may be joyfully existing in the 'great soup', happily bimbling along, and eg.a comment i hear on the radio makes me internally suddenly flair up in rage and grit my teeth.
Fears push? needs pull? i can truly "know" and accept all the way back to my core and thru, pre-thought, but some dust is always gonna be in the corners unless i listen to my minds commentary and go seek.
Actively hunting for these useless, inhibiting, hidden land-mines, will get my spring cleaning done quicker than slowly stripping away, waiting in the silence? :?
Our reactions are instinctive emotional responses set in our genetic code. When we "hear something on the radio" that triggers a responses (fight, flight, attraction, aversion), that response is pointing directly to our very conscious learned biases: political, religious, aesthetic, and such.
Certainly, these learned biases of ours tend to stay in the background of awareness ('subconscious') until ignited by stimuli. Here is the 'problem'. Those biases that give us joy on one hand, bring us sorrow of the other. What are we to do? If we enjoy this roller coaster, we need do nothing. We will simply 'enjoy' and 'suffer' life's journey.
If we wish to smooth out the ups and downs, and travel a more level path, we need to honestly examines our biases (e.g., political, religious, dietary, clothing, artistic, musical, and so on...). That's easy to do. Simply notice the stimuli to which we react. That is the baggage we are toting around which make our journey bumpy.
Now all we need is the willingness to give up the joys our biases (preferences and expectations) bring us. As free will is an illusion, this is not just a case of 'snapping our fingers' to make it happen. Instinctive forces will never allow to give up something which brings us joy unless we truly feel we are trading up to [chref=2]something[/chref] better.
Oh, by the way, we will still 'enjoy' and 'suffer' life's [chref=64]journey[/chref] no matter what we do. While on the [chref=53]by-paths[/chref] we just stub our toes a lot more. On the [chref=18]great way[/chref], we stub our toes less often. Simply said, the lower our expectations, the easier it is to [chref=33]know contentment[/chref]. Boy, doesn't that sound un-American!
I see you've qualified the joys to give up as being those brought by our biases. What about joy for no reason, inner joy, joy unrelated to anything going on on the "outside?" I've experienced that kind of joy and that's my "something better."
Also, I was thinking how much of this is genetic...wanting to level out the ups and downs of life. I know this from personal experience: my genetics make me avoid stimulation. I don't like excitement; I rarely get enthused about anything, actually, and I know I was born this way. So, I like when life is even and steady with gentle ups and downs.
I remember you saying that what's on the outside is the opposite of what's on the inside....or something like that. Perhaps when one doesn't get excited or enthused on the outside, it shows they are easily overstimulated on the inside.
I'm kind of rambling, but where's a better place than here? Plus, no one is posting this weekend so why not me?
(1) There is no "outside". "Outside" is an illusion. Reality is inside. Joy is always "inner". All apparent attachment of joy to things "outside" is symptomatic of an "inner" need. All "reasons" boil down to counterbalancing forces. It is simpler than thoughts can deal with, i.e., thinking complicates it. And I complicate it by saying that, don't I :oops: . So let's [chref=65]turn back[/chref] a little.
(2 )So, what is joy? Returning to basics, it is simply pleasure. And the opposite is pain. Two sides of the same coin, informing all animals about the external world and driving them to do the healthy thing and survive... in the wild! Civilized life disrupts the balancing forces the 'wilderness' provides. Civilization's main purpose is to shield us from the 'pain' of the wilderness. And thus we become 'pleasure' biased. That imbalance causes us some of our grief. Beyond that though, is our expectation of 'pleasure'. We expect it, look forward to it, dream about it, desire it, cling to it. That approach really send us "up" over the top.
It is not feeling "something better" that is the problem, it is our desire and expectation to feel "something better" that (ironically) sends us in the opposite direction. So, as Buddha said, let your sole desire be the performance of your duty (Dharma). Or, as we say, [chref=64]Therefore the sage desires not to desire, and does not value [that] which is hard to come by[/chref].
Oh, by the way, joy and pleasure correlate to "down", and sorrow and pain to "up". This is one why we can never get to the heart of the matter using [chref=78]words[/chref]. The more we can distrust the reality of words, the easier it is to [chref=43]practice teaching that uses no words[/chref]
(3) The 'outside' mirrors the 'inside', in the same way that [chref=2]Something and Nothing produce each other[/chref]. Nothing on the 'inside' cause the effect of Something on the 'outside'. We are biologically set up to be stimulated mainly by the 'outside surface' of reality, and so can't sense this until we peek through the [chref=1]gateway of the manifold secrets[/chref]. That is what makes the idea that [chref=2]the whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly[/chref] so far outside the mainstream of human experience.
Thus, in desiring to escape [chref=63]difficulties[/chref], we hurl ourselves into [chref=63]difficulties[/chref]. The more we seek one side, like pleasure, the more we find the other side, pain. Or as Jesus put it, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Our [chref=19]'have little thought of self and as few desires as possible'[/chref] points in the same direction.
Speaking of human experience, I just realized one way to view masochism. A masochist, by seeking pain finds pleasure, which runs counter to biology's intent, but is in accord with the process, i.e., something and nothing produce each other. This topsy turvy [chref=53]by-path[/chref] exemplifies how far our brain's mind can remove us from Nature's [chref=21]way[/chref].