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Is there an afterlife?
I love it that knowledge correlates with illusion. Knowing correlates with reality. I wish I could always be 100% mindful of reality - that's the true "knowing" the universe, without leaving one's doorstep.
Comments
"Even the present life does not exist, How could the after-life exist?"?
-Phra Ajarn Buddhadasa
Sounds true to me. Anyone else have any thoughts they'd like to share?
It's just rather comical.
I am still not convinced that we know what we think we know or that we don't know what we think we don't know.
That this world isn't real is just a position to live from. It is neither true nor false; at least you and I could never tell one way or the other. To argue for it is absurd.
hmmmmm. Some things just ring true to me, not in my head, but in my whole being. Like my belief that coming back to the present moment is the answer to all my suffering...and yours! I might be wrong, so remaining "tentative" and "murky" works best.
What I am talking about is not "murky" or "tentative". It is being clear about your position and what is available out of standing in it. I have found it empowering not to make another wrong for chosing their position but to be clear that it is only a position. Neither of us can be absolutely sure of the truth of our position; aka "belief" or "point of view".
It is not that I am saying nothing is true. You and I could never tell for certain one way or the other. If it "rings" true to you, it is probably resonating with who you fundamentally are. I would recommend that you follow it for as long as it "rings" true.
That's why I am tentative.
That's why I am tentative. I was quoting the Tao when using the words murky and tentative:
Of old he who was well versed in the way
Was minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending,
And too profound to be known.
It is because he could not be known
That he can only be given a makeshift description:
Tentative, as if fording a river in winter,
Hesitant, as if in fear of his neighbors;
Formal like a guest;
Falling apart like thawing ice;
Thick like the uncarved block;
Vacant like a valley;
Murky like muddy water.
Thats good stuff.
1) almost makes you feel like posting messages and discussing about it is futile. maybe only I get something out of the process of describing what I am thinking as best I can and then examining it again.
2) like, maybe, it is a process and not a destination; keep your conclusions tentative, because if you live util tomorrow, they may change. I totally get that.
I think Carl would say that the interaction on this message board is mostly about the social aspect of our natures. We are a social animal. What *do* you say, Carl? I find it very hard to put this stuff into words...my brain is not wired well enough for that, but I do it because I am elated by the connection I feel to others who feel the same way. There are not many of them.
I had to smile at your "like, maybe." The Tao is compared to Nature, so I was wondering about what in nature is tentative and all I could come up with is a squirrel crossing the street. The little critter is a sage, not the chicken, who looks both ways and decides it's safe. I'm being silly.
I think it's because the Tao is unknowable, a mystery, that the sage is tentative and murky. If he/she were sure, he/she wouldn't know. "He who knows does not speak" because it is unspeakable...like that.
1) You are looking to be convinced? Why? We instinctively want to feel certainty. One of Nature's [chref=65]hoodwinks[/chref] on is our instinctive need to feel certain, in the face of Nature's ever changing nature. Joke's on us...
2) "Real or illusion", "true or false" is like [chref=2]'good nor bad'[/chref]. Words trap our mind. Weakening the hold these preconceptions have on us is how we [chref=14]return to that which is without substance[/chref]. How do we weaken the hold... [chref=36]If you would have a thing weakened, You must first strengthen it.[/chref]
3) Ah, but it can be fun, like any sport. Besides the sport of argument though, is what could be called mutual mind exploration. Sincerely listening to, and pondering how, another mind perceives life sheds light on one's own perceptions - leading to self understanding and self honesty.
1) I say absolutely. I don't think we truly realize just how much everything we do stems from and feeds into our social need. I mean everything, even the hermit out on the mountain side. Our social instinct may be the strongest we have - stronger than food or sex.
2) You're doing a fine job! And, yes, it is a challenge!
3) The 'tao' is the path of [chref=25]that which is naturally so[/chref]. Tao is not really a 'thing', but a direction, I guess you could say. However, we have a tendency to think of it as a 'thing', like God or something.
4) If you feel the tentative and murky, you know the 'tao'. We all feel it through and through! But, we usually hate that [chref=15]tentative, hesitant, falling apart, murky, vacant[/chref] feeling; we instinctively want to be certain.
"[chref=56]One who speaks does not know;... [/chref]" should also be read "one who thinks does not know...", for thinking is just that internal conversation we have with ourselves. That only means that we cannot know through thinking or speaking. The knowing is deeper than words can reach. But, we are so trapped in [chref=23]words[/chref] we have difficulty trusting the [chref=5]silent void[/chref] from which [chref=1]they issue forth[/chref]. Taoism attempts to point to that great [chref=45]empty[/chref] that lies beyond 'beyond'.
Ahhhh.... [chref=78]straightforward words seem paradoxical. [/chref] :?
There was a time when I was; looking to be convinced and trying to convince. Maybe there is still some of that in me. Most probably so.
Perhaps even I feel a little foolish about having been so convinced or trying to be so convincing.
You are right: I do think of it as a thing. Sort of like what water is to a fish, or maybe more like a stream, moving along, flowing. Sometimes I think of it like outer space! I don't know what I'm thinking! This is where the murkiness comes in. :roll:
When I think about real/illusion, I'm visualizing in my mind how existence is mostly space and how subatomic particles are only probabilities, and so reality is an illusion of our perception. But then I make that real...my real gets very small and blinks on and off.
As you can see, my left brain is not where it's at. I think I have to go paint something.
Oh I know the feeling... :oops: