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Morality in Taoism?
This chapter, and Carl's points about it, for me tie into the chapter about the sage doing less and less, until he does nothing at all, and nothing is left undone. (Sorry, I don't have a copy of the Tao Te Ching with me, to quote it properly.)
The more hesitant and tentative I am, the less likely I am to just jump into activity and run around trying to accomplish something. The more focused and centered I become, the less there is that "needs" to be done. "Desires not to be full" sure sums it up in a nutshell.
The more hesitant and tentative I am, the less likely I am to just jump into activity and run around trying to accomplish something. The more focused and centered I become, the less there is that "needs" to be done. "Desires not to be full" sure sums it up in a nutshell.
Comments
NOTE: Please take my question at face value .... do not read criticism or judgement into it, as none is intended. I am simply trying to sanity check my understanding.
Yes, you've got it. Now, what are you going to do with it?...
Following the way is simply being our 'self' in the moment... each moment... empty. There we find contentment. When we are content, we are most natural. Connected with nature, morality, evil, good, bad, etc., all vanish. These are not the qualities of nature, but of civilization. These, our civilized ideals, are symptoms of our disconnection with nature and with our 'self'.
Civilization's sales pitch (the paradigm) is that through morality, honesty, selflessness... etc. one will gain merit and/or all will be well. Using a symptom (morality) to solve the cause (disconnection) is nonsense. It never works, as history and any honest self understanding will shows. When we are [chref=00]content[/chref], we act accordingly. When we are discontent and chasing our ideals and desires, we act accordingly. The view is simple and the [chref=70]words are very easy to understand,[/chref] yet [chref=53] people prefer by-paths[/chref].
Thus, morality is only a projection of what we desire. And, as the desires of human kind shift, so does its moral standards. The inhabitants of each era see their own morality standards as 'written in stone', and look askance at other's with differing standards. But, it is all self centered, which makes it all hypocrisy in the end - Democrat or Republican, Christian or Jew, Taoist or Atheist.
Finally, I suspect that it is our instinctively tribal nature that makes for things being this way. We pair off into our opposing teams and [chref=66]contend[/chref] from birth to death. Consider, for example, this excerpt from Chapter 81: [chref=81]The way of heaven benefits and does not harm; the way of the sage is bountiful and does not contend.[/chref] Now, by harm that doesn't mean Nature does not serve up hurricanes. Nature has no agenda, no intention to harm, no desire to harm, no claim to gain. It just is. We are otherwise. The harm we do is not the actions, but the intent. And the intend is spawned by our own discontent. Passing edicts, judgements, establishing standards and so on does not make us more content. It just obfuscates humanity's underlying reality.
Well, goodness, that is enough bull ----ing for now, eh? I hope I stopped in time.
It is good to have you here at the site Mike Quinn. Hey! there is something that is good...
Here is a poem by Rumi that reminds me:
Out beyond ideas of wrong-doing and right-doing,
There is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense.
Rumi
I'll tell you what I have done -- historically --- with it. I no longer judge people as much as I used to. Instead of seeing someone who has decieved me as "a liar" I see that person simply as a person who has lied ... I try not to attribute any unique meaning to the behavior.
I do struggle sometimes with my own behavior ....when I do something "wrong" I often feel bad. I supposed it's just my western moral upbringing hanging on .....
I'll study the links you offer and perhaps offer more thoughts --- undoubtedly in the form of questions. I appreciate your response, and this site ....it is the only place on the web or otherwise that i have found where I can explore my sense of reality in a "safe" and knowledgeable venue.
Wishing you Balance,
Mike
Further: absent society and all the confusion society brings, I would speculate that people would be more in balance .... it is the "noise" of social constructs that causes man to be out of balance with nature/the Tao.
Do I still have this right?
1) First Mike, I appreciate your appreciation. Sometimes I wonder if I should just keep my trap shut. Of course, that's likely impossible as Allandnone said (I think).
2) Consider seeing their actions as a natural coping mechanism. A symptom of some inner driving force (fear and need, essentially) of which they have no more control over than the termites eating my house... 2B) And, also try pondering your own actions in this same light. By doing this, you give up 'control' and thus cease [chref=73]contending[/chref] with yourself. This allows you to feel deeper contentment which results in actions which reflect that contentment. This approach allow us to [chref=64]deal with a thing while it is still nothing [/chref]
Thus, ironically, by giving up the struggle, we 'win'.
PS Opps, I see you had another post below. What I said above applies to this as well. Our behaviors are all coping actions, symptoms of underlying needs and fears. Constructs of morality don't alter the needs or fears which spawns our actions - whether helpful and harmful.
As social animals we are competitive and via for social ranking. Morality serves this purpose by conveying the illusion of worth, like 'gold' or 'diamond'. i.e., these have no value in Nature. Alas, morality also makes us hypocrites precisely because we are not in control. And, morality give us a false sense of security and a way of avoiding seeing ourselves honestly. This is likely why morality has such a low standing in Taoism. Chapter 38 lays it out well...[chref=38]A man of the highest virtue does not keep to virtue and that is why he has virtue.[/chref]... etc.
Luke, my apologies ...I didn't know there was a more appropriate place to engage in a 'conversation' like this. In the future, where should I go?
Mike :yy:
--- You imply that it's bad to look down on other people's views. But isn't this hypocritical of you, because you guys are talking about people who have morals and saying that they are incorrect, and that morality is invented by society. Aren't you looking "askance" (i had to look this word up
1) "Look down"? Your interpretation of what I said exemplifies the difficulty of communicating anything to do with a [chref=43]teaching that uses no words[/chref]. Hopefully, if one is emotionally neutral after reading my comment, one would take it at face value: That is... history shows that people of one culture or era do indeed regard their own paradigm as 'headed in the right direction', and do easily regard other culture's or era's paradigms as misguided.
Nature is neither moral or immoral. Society, on the other hand, uses arbitrary moral codes to give people an illusion of tribal integrity. This carries unintended consequences, e.g., [chref=57]the better known the laws and edicts, the more thieves and robbers there are.[/chref]
People who "have morals" are neither correct or incorrect. Try looking at "having morals" as simply a symptom of inner forces - fears and needs. For example, people are actually kind and honest, not because they "have morals", but because they are inwardly secure and content, and express that inner balance in their worldly actions. Their actions are symptomatic of their inner balance. Heck, this principle applies not only to us humans, but to all animals - an angry and fearful dog bites.
Insecure and discontented people, on the other hand, often self righteously and hypocritically push their "moral ideals" down everyone's throat. Their self righteous protestations are symptomatic of inner pain and discord - needs and fears.
Observing all human activities as simply symptomatic of - reflections of - our innate fears and needs completely removes "moral" judgement from any observation of human nature. On the other hand, observing each other relative to the "moral code" currently in vogue simply continues our [chref=70] ignorant[/chref] failure to understand ourselves as the animal we are.
Well Jillian, I appreciate you skepticism. Have I clarified things a little? Alas, the more said, the easier it can be to misinterpret. If you still feel that I'm "looking down", I can only suggest that you ponder your interpretation of what you think I am saying. That is one of the trickiest aspects of using words!