Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
A Taoist and a divorce
Hi VtheCursed,
I like your thinking. You say, "I hope any of that makes sense. Maybe I'm over-analyzing. Maybe I'm just crazy." Well, certainly it makes sense. But, as I'm sure you've discovered few journey this deeply into this subject. You're not crazy, but resolving it out can drive one crazy, if either humor or tears fail to relieve the pressure. Anyway, here are a few observations on your analysis. Perhaps they will help?…
This issue is simplified greatly by first accepting that we are animals, regardless of what we 'think' we are (born again, enlightened, created in god's image, the chosen, evil, etc.). Knowing we are just animals makes is easier to accept that emotion drives thought. And then of course, thought feed back onto emotion. Sometimes this becomes a vicious circle. Perhaps more often than not, which makes us a kind of 'nutty species' (yes, we're all "crazy"). Principally because we can't avoid actually believing (gut emotion) what we think. The main role of Taoist thought is to downplay the importance and reality of words, names, and thought, which if it works, decouples that link somewhat. The first chapter starts right out with that theme "The way that can be spoken of is not the constant way" and continues right to the end "Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good".
Moreover we happen to be an extremely social species. That probably accounts for why we are so successful at survival. The "shoulds" are simple social pressures to conform to the group. All social animal have the "shoulds", they just don't have a word to symbolize the emotion, i.e., the impact of "should" lies in feeling the emotional imperative, not the word.
Let's just say your "inner nature" is the emotion side of your nature. Calling it the emotion side does not make it less elusive, just as calling that big ball of fire in the sky "the sun"! Word meaning is really the emotion felt (connected to) the word. Words, without emotion, are meaningless sounds. Emotion is like the air we breath, unseen, intangible, taken for granted, and yet the foundation of life.
Conflicting emotion is common in all animals. Like 'fight' or 'flight', 'stay' or 'leave', conflicting needs (and fears) pulls us in two directions at once. This struggle is an essential life work of survival and natural selection. "Right" versus "wrong" is no different from 'fight' versus 'flight'.
I find it more helpful to think of thought as the smoke caused by the fire of emotion. Where there is fire there is smoke, where there is smoke there is fire. But the origin, the cause, is the fire. No fire, no smoke. The 'thought' we experience is simply a product of a brain wired to think. The fuel that drive the thinking is emotion. The objective nature of thought, along with our opposable thumb and intense social nature, give us a real survival advantage. The disadvantage, for us, is that we experience an 'objective illusion' which has a disconnecting influence on perception. The quantum reality of 'we' becomes a disconnects feeling of 'I am' versus 'that is'. You can see this disconnect by how we phrase the issue of consciousness, e.g., the very notion that one could "reject one over the other?"
Howdy mr.minor,
You say,
Seen from the point of view I outlined above, I'd say your thought simple reflects the emotion of 'ah ha!'. Seeing something new evokes a sense of awe followed by 'ah ha', which drives the thought "I figured it out". If we journey down the road of life with less preconception of what lies ahead, we naturally see something new around every bend in the path, and feel 'ah ha!'. It is the feeling that is notable. If you actually believe you have "figured it out", then you are holding onto the feeling by turning it into a preconception. If you drag that preconception along with you, the sense of awe wanes. This is what happens to children as they start actually believing the paradigm (the cultural forms taught to them).
I suppose you could say that if one takes the Taoist view seriously it will lead one back toward having the mind's-eye of a child, or rather of their childhood. Then you are returning to who you truly are, not contending with who you think you are, or "should" be. Of course, one will always find something to contend with, for that is life.
Well, all that's left to do now is go to bed and rest the brain. Good night all... :-)
I like your thinking. You say, "I hope any of that makes sense. Maybe I'm over-analyzing. Maybe I'm just crazy." Well, certainly it makes sense. But, as I'm sure you've discovered few journey this deeply into this subject. You're not crazy, but resolving it out can drive one crazy, if either humor or tears fail to relieve the pressure. Anyway, here are a few observations on your analysis. Perhaps they will help?…
This issue is simplified greatly by first accepting that we are animals, regardless of what we 'think' we are (born again, enlightened, created in god's image, the chosen, evil, etc.). Knowing we are just animals makes is easier to accept that emotion drives thought. And then of course, thought feed back onto emotion. Sometimes this becomes a vicious circle. Perhaps more often than not, which makes us a kind of 'nutty species' (yes, we're all "crazy"). Principally because we can't avoid actually believing (gut emotion) what we think. The main role of Taoist thought is to downplay the importance and reality of words, names, and thought, which if it works, decouples that link somewhat. The first chapter starts right out with that theme "The way that can be spoken of is not the constant way" and continues right to the end "Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good".
Moreover we happen to be an extremely social species. That probably accounts for why we are so successful at survival. The "shoulds" are simple social pressures to conform to the group. All social animal have the "shoulds", they just don't have a word to symbolize the emotion, i.e., the impact of "should" lies in feeling the emotional imperative, not the word.
If any part of me is my "inner nature," I suppose it's this Something. (And yet, the fact that I've so easily "identified" my "inner nature" bothers me... as if it should be more elusive.
Let's just say your "inner nature" is the emotion side of your nature. Calling it the emotion side does not make it less elusive, just as calling that big ball of fire in the sky "the sun"! Word meaning is really the emotion felt (connected to) the word. Words, without emotion, are meaningless sounds. Emotion is like the air we breath, unseen, intangible, taken for granted, and yet the foundation of life.
The mind can't lead us, because it's too limited to conceptualize the Way and where it "goes," but this Something seems to know. And that's why I brought this topic up -- because frequently I feel compelled to do things that don't seem "right." Sometimes I feel compelled to resist rather than relax
Conflicting emotion is common in all animals. Like 'fight' or 'flight', 'stay' or 'leave', conflicting needs (and fears) pulls us in two directions at once. This struggle is an essential life work of survival and natural selection. "Right" versus "wrong" is no different from 'fight' versus 'flight'.
What bothers me about ALL of this is... BOTH thoughts and emotions are a part of our nature as human beings. And I'm compelled to think that since we have them, they must be there for a good reason, whatever it might be. So is it even appropriate to reject one over the other? But then the problems becomes what to do when they disagree, as we tear our hair out.
I find it more helpful to think of thought as the smoke caused by the fire of emotion. Where there is fire there is smoke, where there is smoke there is fire. But the origin, the cause, is the fire. No fire, no smoke. The 'thought' we experience is simply a product of a brain wired to think. The fuel that drive the thinking is emotion. The objective nature of thought, along with our opposable thumb and intense social nature, give us a real survival advantage. The disadvantage, for us, is that we experience an 'objective illusion' which has a disconnecting influence on perception. The quantum reality of 'we' becomes a disconnects feeling of 'I am' versus 'that is'. You can see this disconnect by how we phrase the issue of consciousness, e.g., the very notion that one could "reject one over the other?"
Howdy mr.minor,
You say,
I too often come out of a meditative state to think I've finally figured "it" out. But that's just another concept, right?
Seen from the point of view I outlined above, I'd say your thought simple reflects the emotion of 'ah ha!'. Seeing something new evokes a sense of awe followed by 'ah ha', which drives the thought "I figured it out". If we journey down the road of life with less preconception of what lies ahead, we naturally see something new around every bend in the path, and feel 'ah ha!'. It is the feeling that is notable. If you actually believe you have "figured it out", then you are holding onto the feeling by turning it into a preconception. If you drag that preconception along with you, the sense of awe wanes. This is what happens to children as they start actually believing the paradigm (the cultural forms taught to them).
I suppose you could say that if one takes the Taoist view seriously it will lead one back toward having the mind's-eye of a child, or rather of their childhood. Then you are returning to who you truly are, not contending with who you think you are, or "should" be. Of course, one will always find something to contend with, for that is life.
Well, all that's left to do now is go to bed and rest the brain. Good night all... :-)
Comments
I was married for almost 8 years, but we've been together for over 10. About 3 weeks ago, my wife told me she wanted a divorce. We've had problems before and been at divorce's doorstep before, but this time was different. I knew she was dead serious. I was shocked, but I was also expecting it for a while.
Being a chronic depressive with A.D.D. caused me to constantly be in a state of flux. I'd be fine for a few weeks, and then sink into a depression for some time. Even when I wasn't depressed, I was never really happy. After 10 years, she finally had enough and couldn't take it anymore. She needed stability and predictability. She felt like more of a mother than a wife, and no longer wanted to put her happiness on hold.
If that had been it, I may have been ok, but she told me 3 days later that she was attracted to the father of one of the girls she works with, who is old enough to be her father. This is what really hurt. To feel replaced so soon devastated me. I went through days of depression, anger, and guilt. She wanted an amicable divorce to save our 3 children the pain of a lengthy fight and I agreed. The divorce wasn't borne out of her anger at me, just her inability to be happy with me. I'm even still living at home until I can find work and a place to move. However, my reaction to her new found attraction almost got me kicked out of the house.
Finally one day, I picked up the Tao Te Ching, and instantly began to feel better. During the marriage, I put Taoism on the backburner because my wife saw me as being unambitious, a pushover, and wishy-washy. But Lao Tzu's words reminded me of my true self.
So now I'm living a more Taoist lifestyle. I've let go of my anger and accepted this as it is. Problem is, I'm still human and still feel hurt. I embrace the hurt for what it is and know it won't last forever. Nothing does.
What do you other fellow Taoists do with your hurt, and do you have any suggestions or thoughts on my place in life right now?
I love her, and try greatly to explain to her what is happening, but she sometimes just can't or won't see. I believe she is attached to a certain quality of myself that I am trying to let go of, and when it is gone, she wonders why I become like I do.
Anyhow, my advice is that helping others is always a truly gratifying experience, but one must not let go of what is important in their life in order to please another. If it is myself changing that someone cannot accept, it may be best to move on. Honesty and talking will always yield better peace of mind. I talk with my girlfriend about all of this, and and hate keeping these thoughts at bay. But only you will know what works for you, and don't let that go. Well, I suppose Taoism would imply we should let that go too...;)
I've been there before too! (
Our deepest pain originates in that which we 'love' (need) the most. I notice that the only way we understand that simple cause and effect process is through experience. Experiencing it brings understanding down to the 'gut' level. Only then does it becomes easier to 'need without needing' to paraphrase the well know wei wu wei (actionless action).
Even so, it is far to easy to just ride out the pain, chalk it up to bum luck and continue on only to redo this 'pleasure causes our pain' lesson again and again.
Thus, rather than "embracing the hurt", learn the lesson embedded within it. Your need creates your hurt. It is totally within and has nothing whatsoever to do with the outside world. Of course, our biology strives to hoodwink us into seeing it otherwise. We are tricked into feeling that holding on to what we need will make us happy. The reality is just the opposite. Mother Nature is a [chref=5]ruthless[/chref] rascal.
Thanks for that clarity, Carl.
The discomfort of maturing seems to be defended by our biology, just as you say. Even worse it's still only our choice, the mind and heart do what we tell them to.
I sometimes see that big, reliable pain of holding on to what i 'need', as the pounding of waves against my ship as the sails of te pull me along smoothly but insistently.
My attention wants to look at nothing but the waves and feel nothing but how much they hurt. That's a false loyalty, an immaturity as you point out, that just doesn't help anybody, me or the ones I love.
So far when reality hits my fan, I only mentally understand that I have no choice but to 'learn from the hurt' and grow from the learning. My stubborn loyalty to my stagnations, and the resulting TV-quality drama of those waves and me smacking each other around, won't change the givens of living. Those aren't going to go away, or hurt any less until I shift my attention.
What a ruthless, precise device we find ourselves in! The Old Gal nurtures us with an iron hand. Or so I make it seem before I let anything in me change. A real bad habit that one.
So, even advising that one learn from an experience comes more from wishful thinking on my part than any practical actuality. I can't help myself. :roll: Perhaps none of us can, for we will always be pulled into the illusion of choice. Mother Nature doesn't give up easily.
I see no 'bad habits' out there. We only do what we do to counter-balance how we feel vis-a-vis need and fear. When the need or fear changes or subsides the 'bad habit' fade away naturally. Need and fear are the bottom line; I can see no practical way of controlling them. They are the puppeteers; we are the puppets. As long as a 'self' thinks it can control the flow, the ride will be a rocky affair. At least that has been my experience so far. So far taking the illusion with a grain of salt seems to be the most effective remedy. Now, how does one 'choose' to do that? :?
Heart and mind certainly act like they're of the man-made, illusory side of the real reality line, even though their basic mechanisms are of our biological yin. Mirrors to show us ourselves perhaps, but even if only that, why would the world bother to build such a circular-information entertainment in the monkey flesh? While we overly-trust in and rely on them, we do seem built to be unable to see much of anything else of the world or ourselves.
So maybe we fake having the option of having any real control, by taking distracting pride in re-arranging the deck chairs in mid-catastrophe, then hiding the irrelevance of that with trying to believe magical presumptions that our arrangements, if done 'just right', will convince the ship to stop sinking. Human-naturey and dim-witted enough to base a religion on, or maybe all the religions. Better to take some deep breaths and get ready to swim, I suppose.
Faced with death, divorce, disappointment or any of the rest of that ilk, we set about whipping up a nice comforting quilt of understanding and 'maturity' for ourself. Which doesn't change a thing, does it, just postpones our acceptance of that nasty-ass puppet/puppeteer situation, (the situation between the tao and us, not between us and any other person).
Living as creatures in an environment that both seem to operate on attachment and desire, those two relationships seem to be quite absolutely unacceptable in our perceptions of the harmony that manifested our given situation in the first place. The Great Hoodwink in action, no doubt.
It's almost nice to think that cleaning up our perception of any of this is worth so much to the eternal setup that all the details of our life reliably and painfully dramatize the tiniest of our misperceptions. At least it gives the refinement of our perceptions, whatever that may mean, a place in the scheme of things more important than the details of our illusory worlds, external or internal.
Such an extensive, intrinsic and rock-hard process, almost affirms that we have the potential of someday seeing things more clearly, or is that a matter of deck chairs, too? How does growth exist in the timeless, anyway? What could it matter?
As for “such a circular-information entertainment”, I reckon the tribal sense, the social instinct, is one of the principle driving forces underlying this. Religion, after all, is a social phenomenon which beneath it all promises to connect us to each other and to ‘it’ (God, Tao, Spiritual Harmony, or what ever we come to name ‘it’). The notion of free will / control is an outgrowth of our biology too. It is actually the ‘need to control’. We assume that feeling the need to control will transform itself into fact. The same applies to our spiritual needs such as the desire for enlightenment. Feeling the need transforms itself into assuming the need can, or will, be met. That is the core illusion with which biology manipulates us. The ‘faith’ that pursuing need will succeed keeps us and all other creature moving (i.e., living) .
Ah, questions are so much more potent than answers. From a correlations point of view, questions are reality, answers are illusion. You ask, “how does growth exist in the timeless, anyway?” I take a hint from the ocean tides - they ebb and flow. What growth is there in that cycle? So, I reckon the idea of growth reflect more about what we need, i.e., ‘growth’ promise a way to find what we feel we need. The bottom line here is that ‘need’ is what keeps life living. Without that sense, life can’t live. Thus, true success in finding what we need must end in death.
Now that may sound a little pessimistic. But the ‘cup half full’ view would be that after a brief life we all die meaning that we all succeed in finding what we need… in the end. My, that sounds a bit like heaven, with hell being the living we endure to get there. Again, from a correlations point of view,
[chref=16]heaven[/chref] = reality = death = question =contentment = ebb = return
hell = illusion = life = answer = need = flow = growth
Somewhat shockingly in any human conversation, these will bring me BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!, which should probably be retitled as 'Four Taoists and their Divorces'.
I'm in the first separation in a thirty year marriage, which, with my cooperation(?), is tearing big parts of me to bits. Quite a few other overlaps with Eegad and Mr. Minor's stories, too.
Carl said: I disagree with some of this. First I'm not a big heaven and hell guy, those being too Holy Whichever Empire, Confucian and/or Disney for me, so let me change those two to harmony and disharmony (te & pu te) to start with. My version of your correlations then:
harmony = reality = life = question = contentment = ebb&flow = growth/return
disharmony = illusion = dying = answer(?) = fear = stagnation = clinging
Answers can be resonant with the flow, so I'm not sure they always belong in the disharmony area. Granted they're necessarily near-lifeless cartoons (verbality) of best-fit rationalizations (right brain story telling) of best-fit emotional tones (memory and mid-brain filtering) of whatever gets in through our tiny little empathy circuits and sensory reductions, but they can reassure, and inform and even improve the accuracy of how we react to the big flow around, amongst and within us. ( I sure would like to hear of the neuropsych basis of question generation.)
I think we do have free-will choices in the area of how our actions, attitudes and affections resonate with the shared te harmony in our worldly ways: the 'how you're walking' of the path. Our affection for anybody or thing feels to be an expressed form of the deep harmony we share. Such active affection helps us feel good; we respect it socially and internally.
There's no finality or withdrawl for me in the ebb of a wave or a life, no loss of identity, only a transition, not a regret.
The only 'pain' involved in waves is to resist it, to be stagnant against its flow, sinking your toes into the sand and getting stubborn against it. The water then effortlessly pushes and pulls tons at you, while easily changing to a new lesson of dancing, resonant current and spray around you. And you get tired, and maybe dragged out to sea. All I see growing there is knowledge of disharmony.
Marriage, of any kind that is heartfelt, is an affirmation, social, emotional, volitional, devotional, and on and on, affirming that two (or more) have come to see and share deep harmony, with all its marvelous splashings and breakings and recedings, in their personal connection. Belligerantly against a static culture that claims life is only of separated, contentious outer shells, the married joyfully, calmly and powerfully announce that their shared inner lives are very real to them. Together they become an expressed manifestation of the truth we all live within us, and love having affirmed.
Separation and divorce declare that deep awareness defeated, rejected, released, leaving shallow lives of egos in conventional contention.
Accepting such an emotional death as fated, accepting stagnation in a world of balanced flow, seems to be where divorce begins and ends, not how we should react to it or any other real thing. I know in my marraige the stagnations left in us from our childhoods, that we then did nothing about, were what objected to the trust and love we had become. If we don't choose to address them, then our marriage will end.
What's to learn from forced separation from shared harmonies: maybe the cost of unresponsive stagnation in our dynamic inner lives, or that a paired view requires both to move along somehow in a way that continues to share perspectives.
How to weather the unwanted changes without massive, deep disharmonies: find new harmonies within or without us, I guess. For me now that answer is only of abstract design and hope.
I don’t know about "neuropsych basis of question generation", but how about this: Questions originate in a curiosity instinct. This instinct drives living things to hunt and gather, to peek around the corner and find a tasty morsel. The tasty morsel we find is the answer. Once chewed and swallowed, answers become like all other tasty morsel after being chewed and swallowed.
It is easier to “think we do have free-will” than not. After all, we think and then we do. That is a profoundly convincing illusion. No one has ever come forward with a simple practical example of free will though, so until that happens… hint hint…
Being social animals with social needs, of course it “feels good” when those needs are met, and plenty painful when they are taken away via death, divorce, shame. A swan responds similarly, for example. What is true of it, and other social animals, must apply to us (except for all the thinking). If you are saying that other animals have free-will, then I concur. But then we’ve changed the common definition of free-will (and about time too).
When the emotional currents of our [chref=51]circumstances[/chref] toss us around there is not much we can do but ride out the storm. Sickness, loss, divorce, failure… the loss of what we treasure is bound to leave us feeling crappy. Simply said, the fruits of our sorrows are sown by the seeds of our pleasure. It is what I call natural justice, and a lesson for the learning.
My my, I must sound pretty hardnosed about all this. That’s undoubtedly one reason my ex-wife needed to leave. As painful as that loss was, it opened the way. [chref=11]Thus what we gain is Something, yet it is by virtue of Nothing that this can be put to use[/chref].
Heresy becoming recognized as a better description of things would seem to describe the experience of improving one's view of things.
To me every one of your comments are clarifying, thought inviting and intuitively worthy of trust. I don't see that I disagree with a one or them, mentally, emotionally or in my understanding. They offer a couple of new looks at things, that I'll be thinking about a while. Articulations, not so much alternatives.
In some thread or another I claimed that we're always about knowing the unity to be found just beyond the distinctions our perceptions use to see and communicate. This conversation has done a lot of just that for me.
Thanks for these useful responses.
And I wouldn't be at this stage in my life if I hadn't gone through some rough patches, I'm sure of it.
I, too, went through a divorce recently. 15 months ago my wife said she wanted a divorce. She was seeing another man. I felt helpless, blind-sided. I stayed living in the same house for 3 months (a hellish limbo I'd strongly advise against), and then our divorce was finalized about 6 months ago and I've been on my own for a year now.
What really helped me was that about 25 years ago I got into Aikido a little bit, just enough to learn some of the basic concepts (e.g.- circular motion, that your opponent is actually your partner in the 'dance', embracing non-violence).
Also, about 6 months before my breakup someone introduced me to the writings and work of Byron Katie. I highly recommend Byron Katie's approach, which is to examine what is bugging you and completely accept it.
So I saw that I could not change my wife or anyone else, and that I had to accept fully what was happening.
A few months into the split I picked up the Tao Te Ching for the first time, and completely fell in love with it. I am currently studying only the TTC. I am taking my time, chapter by chapter, soaking it in.
Would I have found such a wonderful peace if I had not had my divorce, and subsequently found the TTC? I don't think so. I think I needed what happened. Obviously I did, because that's how it happened!
But I also have to give credit to Aikido and Byron Katie for leading me here. Both of them have been themselves heavily influenced by the Tao Te Ching!
Egadd, how are you doing now?