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The 2nd Noble Truth
I think ultimately all one can do in this situation is pick that path that they feel most comfortable with. Some people welcome the opportunity to talk about Taoism. I personally feel that if I am one who doesn't appreciate someone pushing their beliefs on me then I would choose the path that would ensure that I don't do the same in return.
I also am one who is willing to talk about Taoism if someone is looking for information.. I don't want it to seem as if I am ashamed of my beliefs.
I also am one who is willing to talk about Taoism if someone is looking for information.. I don't want it to seem as if I am ashamed of my beliefs.
Comments
Also, it seems we could enjoy pleasures with balance, and if we do not attach to these pleasures could we not be free from this suffering?
Cheers,
allandnone
PS: Sorry I have been away so long.
Is that not spoken to in the 3rd/4th Noble Truths? (Although, may I say... Non-attachment? Where's the fun in that?
I must say that when I am feeling joy it is much easier to stay present!
Nice to see you again, Allandnone.
Ah, you’ve caught onto my nitpicky ways I see, i.e., If truth is agreed to be defined as "Conformity to fact or actuality" is this really a truth? So sure, and I reckon that’s about as good as it gets before plunging into the ‘indistinct and shadowy’.
Aren’t people more worried about the suffering and pains of life than the joys and pleasures? No one has any ‘[chref=71]difficulty[/chref]’ dealing with the latter. The former are the thorns in our backsides. The main purpose of the Four Noble Truths is to point out the source for those thorns and a way to pull them out (or at least to feel we have a way to pull them out). We will be free from suffering when we are dead, either literally or [chref=7]without thought of self[/chref] figuratively. The solution, the cure, is [chref=70]very easy to understand and very easy to put into practice, yet no one in the world can understand it or put it into practice[/chref]. But, don’t tell anyone.
One caveat I would add ‘no one in the world can understand it or put it into practice’ - more or less. The more we expect the less we can be without thought of self. Expectations are the fuel that drive thought of self. That is the unintended natural consequence of a language based mind. Alright, we have [chref=36]set it up[/chref]; now what? What is Mother Nature's next move? I'm ready, aren't you?
Naturally, when one believes one has free will, becoming “attached to detachment” becomes an all too easy [chref=53]by-path[/chref].
In my experience, when I am able to let go of attachment to something (even or especially my own thoughts), there is a great opening and the pushes and pulls of desire fall away in that moment. Then there is no question of "should I be attached to" this feeling of opening. There is only the moment and words fall away.
Yesterday, a friend said "There is no way to feel gratitude and hatred at the same time." Try it! It's hard to do. Perhaps the same is true of attachment and letting go.
What do the correlations say about attached/detached? (I don't like the word detached...it sounds too cold and closed when the experience is warm and open.)
Well, how about this for a "good" way:
[chref=15]Falling apart like thawing ice;
Thick like the uncarved block;
Vacant like a valley;
Murky like muddy water.[/chref]
I don’t know about any “difficulty communicating in a state of enlightenment”. Rather, communication to me is all about consciousness: listening, watching, feeling. There in would also lie my definition of enlightenment, which to me is simply being consciousness and connected, i.e., [chref=56]mysterious sameness[/chref]; it is the ultimate in communication communion. I suppose it all depends upon definitions.
“Talking to myself” arises from the impact on my thinking brain of social-tribal and problem-solving instincts (among others?). Add to that any preconceptions (beliefs) onto which we fervently hold will lead to some endless conversations.
[chref=32]Only when it is cut are there names.
As soon as there are names
One ought to know that it is time to stop.
Knowing when to stop one can be free from danger[/chref]
... and from endless conversations.
What do the correlations say about attached/detached? (I don't like the word detached...it sounds too cold and closed when the experience is warm and open.)[/quote]
That make sense to me; attachment and letting go are two sides of the same coin. At any one time we are either on one side or the other. Any idea of creating, find, or maintaining a state where only one side exists is non-sense from a Taoist point of view. One side invariably and inevitably flips to the other. They quite naturally [chref=2]produce each other; complement each other; off-set each other; harmonize with each other; follow each other[/chref]. Our species has been contending with nature for millennia, and the illusion of “detachment” is just another example of that struggle to win and have our cake and eat it too.
“What do the correlations say about attached/detached” is an interesting question. First, the process is more like asking yourself how do you want “attached / detached” to correlate? That is how correlations work. You use any and all previously ‘agreed upon’ correlations to pinpoint meaning (personal) for yourself.
For example, I’m ‘mostly’ happy with these correlations. The question now is under which category do I feel “attached” and “detached” belong. This requires some serious pondering, but once I decided it becomes more difficult to ‘have it both ways’ by rationalizing my thoughts to fit what I want. Simply put, word meaning can flip flop both ways according to personal perceptual whims of the moment. I’d try correlating detached to the ‘yang’ and then the 'yin' side. I'd do the same for attached and eventually decide which best fit where. For example, I’ll bold the words I feel most correlate to [b]detached[/b]. The whole process is a little tedious, especially at writer's speed compared with thought speed so I'll leave it at this.
[list][i]'yang'__________'yin'[/i]
[b]DETACHED[/b]______ATTACHED
[b]answer[/b]_________question
[b]apart[/b]___________connected
[b]awareness[/b]______consciousness
[b]clear[/b]____________murky
[b]difference[/b]_______similarity
false____________true
[b]flow[/b]____________ebb
[b]growth[/b]_________return
hell_____________heaven
[b]'I'[/b]_____________ ‘I’ not I,
[b]illusion[/b]__________reality
[b]leader[/b]___________follower
life______________death
male_____________female
need_____________contentment
objective__________subjective
[b]obvious[/b]__________subtle
[b]out there[/b]________ in here
performer_________ audience
personal_________ cosmic
[b]something[/b]_______ nothing
soul_____________spirit
[b]stirs[/b]____________ settles
takes ___________ gives
[b]unique[/b]__________common
words___________silence
work____________rest[/list]
From my point of view, in the end, “detached” is the source of our problem. Moreover, I’d say it is thinking that “detaches” us from ‘now’. However, from that frame of reference we blame attachment for our problem.
Poking a little deeper, here is how it looks to me. When we cling and hold onto something (matter or thought) we must detach ourselves from the ‘whole’. Detachment from the whole makes life flow. Attachment (reconnecting) to the whole is rest, death, peace, settled, ebbing, returning.
Attachment to my diamond ring is not ‘attachment’ to the whole, but rather detachment from the whole. Thus we have two versions of attachment, small ‘a’ attachment (to my diamond), and big connective ‘A’ attachment (to [chref=39]the One[/chref] whole). Attachment correlates to the word yoga:
[list][u]Yoga[/u]
Etymology: Sans, union, lit., a yoking: for IE base see yoke…
[u]Yoke[/u]
Etymology: ME [i]yok[/i] < OE [i]geoc,[/i] akin to Ger [i]joch[/i] < IE *[i]yugo-[/i] (> Sans [i]yuga,[/i] L [i]jungere, jugum,[/i] Gr [i]zeugma,[/i] Welsh [i]iau,[/i] OSlav [i]igo[/i]) < base *[i]yeu-,[/i] to join
transitive verb yoked, yok[b]'[/b]ing
1. to put a yoke on
2. to harness (an animal) to (a plow, etc.)
3. to join together; link
4. to join in marriage
intransitive verb
to be joined together or closely united
[/list]
It all depends upon what one is 'attached' to, or 'detached' from. It is little wonder that some regard [chref=23]words[/chref] and [chref=32]names[/chref] as ultimately useless as a means to [chref=71]think[/chref] our way to the truth.
(Now where did I put that chocolate cake?!)
Our conception of free will according to Tolstoy's "War and Peace", gradually increases or decreases with connection to the external world, greater or lesser remoteness of time and the greater or lesser dependence on the causes....
Without the belief of freewill, what happens to our western culture, laws etc.?
[chref=18]When the great way falls into disuse
There is benevolence and rectitude;
When cleverness emerges
There is great hypocrisy.[/chref]
I wouldn't mind living in a more honest culture, although being as self honest as possible may be just as good in the end. And, honestly speaking, an 'honest culture' is just a pie-in-the-sky ideal taking the pressure off me being as honest as possible. There must be a fancy psychological word for that like bypass projection, [chref=53]by-path[/chref] projection, or something. :roll:
To detach from the subjective is the key to eliminating those feelings of suffering that we so desperately love to wallow in. I detach, is to become disconnected. Of course that is impossible in and of it self. But to become detached in the sense of not putting all our stuff on the particular phenomena prevents suffering.
Perhaps my perception of the concept of this detachment is flawed in some way as I do not perceive it as a letting go of the thing, but letting go of how we handle the thing. When a thing presents itself, lets say, anger for instance, we feel anger, than we act out anger in the way we have been taught to act out anger. Screaming, fighting, throwing things, overeating, getting drunk, etc. What ever our perception of anger is we implement. This is our subjective reality.
Now anger detached, and help me if I create an error in this explanation, i'm a screamer and a rejecter. I scream because I want you to know without a doubt you're hurting me. I am angry because you hurt me, I am angry because you. I react because you hurt me and caused me pain and you shouldn't have done that. Ok, this is all subjective.
Subjectively, the perceptions I have in place lead me to believe that you in fact are doing something to me. The Objective reality is something entirely different.
I am choosing to feel hurt and pain because I perceive the thing that is done as painful. I am choosing to feel anger because I believe that this is the appropriate response to the hurt and pain I have chosen to feel. I believe that I can control you and prevent you from causing me hurt and pain through these actions, when in fact you have no control whatsoever over what I choose to feel and how I react to what I have chosen to feel.
Once I learn, accept and implement this lesson in my life, I can choose to make the necessary change in perception that will place the control over my feelings and actions with me.
i can realize that the thing you are doing has nothing to do with me, but is your choice and response to things based on your subjective perceptions which do not necessarily agree with the objective reality. I can use the information that I have learned to change the scenario to one in which I am not screaming and crying because you have chosen to say something based on your perception.
in realizing that you have the right to say what you want to say, I too have the right to respond as I choose to respond. In realizing that I am not a reactionary, I can choose to be proactive. When I am reacting, I am not understanding my own personal power in determining what and how I want to feel. I am allowing you to make that determination for me.
If you say I am a snot, I can respond violently that I am not a snot and you have no right to call me a snot and scream, yell, jump up and down and go to war because you called me a snot.
Or I can accept that this is your perception, agree that you have the right to have this perception, understand that the objective reality is that I am a human being and not a snot and therefore take no offense. Hopefully, at the same time having the skills that will allow me to move from the confrontation without harm to either of us. But we know that many a sage has been attacked because of others faulty perceptions.
When we manifest detachment that allows us to move away from our egos, perceive ourselves separate from all other things, etc. in detachment we find attachment as we come to the understanding that I is we and we is I, distinct and not distinct at the same time.
Ok so I'm verbose and want to use 15 pages to explain one itty bitty thingy, but thats me.:-D