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We're Nuts, No Doubt!
Yeah, I don't talk politics with people. Among other reasons, I'm 51 and have never voted. I too have never felt a strong pull to one side or the other. To me, taking sides, or a stand on an issue, is too much like "hammering things to a point". Along with what Carl said about the involvement of strong emotion.
I'm a lot more comfortable with turning back, away from the desire of a definite stand, a judgment of I'm right, they're wrong. As Carl also pointed out, people's similarities outweigh perceived differences. I suppose the tribal/social aspect comes into play: whoever threatens my comfort zone, in whatever aspect of life, then they're the bad guy. If you agree with my biased perspective, then you're one of us good guys.
These days it's a little easier to be tentative, hesitant - opening to the mystery, instead of trying to nail down specifics. Which end up being illusory anyway.
I'm a lot more comfortable with turning back, away from the desire of a definite stand, a judgment of I'm right, they're wrong. As Carl also pointed out, people's similarities outweigh perceived differences. I suppose the tribal/social aspect comes into play: whoever threatens my comfort zone, in whatever aspect of life, then they're the bad guy. If you agree with my biased perspective, then you're one of us good guys.
These days it's a little easier to be tentative, hesitant - opening to the mystery, instead of trying to nail down specifics. Which end up being illusory anyway.
Comments
Perhaps it illustrates the point that we, as a species, are quite delusional and unstable. It's not genetic though; we are not inherently nuts. The main reason we are delusional is not only are we able to think, we also believe we [chref=71]think that we know[/chref]. That tipped our primate biology off balance and we've used religion ever since (for the past 50,000 years anyway) to hopefully pull us back into balance.
Alas, religion - no matter how sincere - can never work for we still believe what we think. Our thought just takes on a 'spiritual' context. Nature's marvelous experiment has species coming and going all the time. I suppose we are the first species to 'take it so personally'. Do we 'take it too personally'? If so, is 'she' is going to fix us, or just start over and try something else?
The only scenario I can imagine fixing our 'problem' is more 'on the job training'. We each need to live much longer before we can begin to understand ourselves deeply enough to regain some balance. Curiously, modern medicine (combined with any ancient medicine that works) may extend the average life span to a couple hundred years – eventually! Would that be long enough to realize our [chref=70]ignorance[/chref]? The toughest lessons take longest to learn. Hmm,...
Do you think that some, Hitler for instance, create or develop beliefs to support what they want to obtain or achieve? I can't even begin to cover all the ways; for instance, I think he targeted the Jews to unite the rest of the country against a common enemy and to instill fear in the very same. (If he can do it to them, he can do it to me! I'd better cooperate.) Once he gained power and control over the country, he went after new countries.
I also thought of slavery. The outrageous things people said about the slaves to justify treating them like animals (maybe worse-I wasn't there). I think the beliefs were all designed to justify it so they could continue to do it without remorse. I think we use beliefs to talk ourselves into certain behavior or to justify the behaviour we are already bent on.
I would go as far as saying that Hitler and the pro-slavery bunch didn't really believe what they said. They either consciously or sub-consciously knew it was nonsense. But the belief served their desires.
The difference between this and how I understood you is that in your model, you think something and then believe it. In mine, you want something and form a belief to support it all the while hiding from yourself that you made it up.
Just a thought. I am not sure I believe it.
The beliefs we think endorse the passions we feel. Passions are the emotional currents that ebb and flow through life, e.g., pleasure, pain, anger, compassion, love, hate, etc. Put more simply, belief results when thought rationalizes need or fear. Viewed this way, [chref=19]desire[/chref] can be defined as: 'the synthesis of a rationalization with its emotional core'.
Naturally, all this is academic (i.e., irrelevant :roll:) until I can personally [chref=16]watch[/chref] how it all plays out in myself and in others. Then it become incredibly useful!
Desire blinds [chref=32]knowing[/chref] the 'big picture', making it impossible to distinguish 'sense' from 'nonsense'. Like I said, belief and desire are inextricably mixed, they are co-dependant and co-generating! What makes an animal's needs and a human's needs different? Animals don't desire, we do. We both feel need, but thought turns our need into desire. Then, we 'prove' the desire is just with rationalizations (belief) biased by need to favor itself.
My, that sounds convoluted. Life's most simplest aspects are among the most difficult to speak on. That figures!
Certainly, we agree that "want" precedes "belief". However, you imply that we, the believers, have enough free will to "hide from ourselves that we made it up". If anything, resulting "beliefs" feed back on the causative "wants" (often in a vicious circle) deepening self ignorance. How much 'outside his box' awareness can a 'believer' experience? Belief's obsession (the little Hitler in us all) is utterly [chref=70]ignorant[/chref]. Being so, how can 'he' know anything? Sure, our little 'Hitler' [chref=71]thinks that he knows[/chref], but in the end, ignorant is [chref=16]ignorant[/chref].
The only way to break this vicious circle is to [chref=19]have little thought of self and as few desires as possible[/chref]. Alas, first weakening that vicious circle is necessary before we can hope to 'have as few desires as possible'. It's a conundrum of sorts; a 'catch 22'. So far, I've found the only way to resolve that is to carefully watch what's going on. This helps deepen and broaden my understanding; [chref=43]understanding[/chref] is everything. No wonder Buddha put 'right understanding' as the 'first' step on his Eight Fold Path.
We feel what we feel. Emotion is primal and integral to our original nature. There's nothing we can - or should! - do about that. So, the mind's thought - how we see things - is the only way we can weaken the vicious circle whirling between thought and emotion. The hitch here is that we need to muster the courage to distrust belief somewhat and [chref=37]remain still[/chref]. Remaining still, helps us step out of that vicious belief – emotion circle to view the 'big picture'. Having the courage to be [chref=15]tentative, hesitant[/chref] and to trust [chref=11]Nothing[/chref] is a tall order to be sure. But, we all love a challenge, right?
Hmm,...perhaps I should say what I mean by 'belief':
Any certainty in thinking creates belief, except the certainty of this statement, naturally... :oops: . Any thought that something is [chref=2]'good' or 'beautiful'[/chref], for example, passes for a belief. [chref=32]Knowing when to stop[/chref], for me, means to leave it at a sensual "I like this" and "I don't like that" stage. But, even then, certainty will turn simple sensual leanings into intellectual dogma. I suspect any thought that elicits strong emotion is belief.
If you think of "hide" as a process that happens without oversight, then it isn't much different that the rest of what you said.
I don't know the whole truth, if any at all.