Participants needed!! Just a thought..

Tanne71 · August 2005

well, trying to keep things going.. what kinda (genre) books do y'all read ?

I like mostly SciFi and fantasy, I loved Dune and think it is the best.

I just finished Eldest, book two of the Inheritance trilogy by Christopher Paolini. It is kinda like Lord of the Rings and I detect a touch of Star Wars influence too. It is really good reading. here is a link to his site www.alagaesia.com oh and the guy that wrote it is just 21, he started the trilogy when he was 15, but don't let that stop you from reading it.

I read classics too: Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, Shakespeare, Edgar Allan Poe (especially around Holloween), Charles Dickens and Homer.

I also read 3D graphics books. I do 3D graphics as a hobby, using Cinema4D.

Tanne71 · August 2005

Hi guys! I've been spending the last week or so observing myself and my actions toward my children. As some of you know I am having a rather difficult time dealing with this motherhood thing

So, this is what I've come up with. I have been reading and reading Carl's writings and seem to be understanding more and more yet searching deep within to find myself. I have a hard time with "you should do this" or "you have to do that" kind of advice so I was thinking about what if I posted different "real life" scenarios that I have witnesses and delt with and asked for people to share with me the way they may have dealt with this in their home and in many cases it might be something that you've had to deal with before. I'd just like to stay away from the "I am right you"," are doing it all wrong" thing. I truly believe that nobody's way is right, but I don't think it hurts for me to have knowledge of the world outside my four walls. And, this may be a way for me to visualize someone else reacting to the same situation but maybe in a more productive manner. Trust me, I want the best for my children but I am being brutally honest in saying that I haven't a clue how to raise these little ones.

For example, I post: (this isn't true).....Tonight supper was a disaster! Zane stood on his chair and threw his sandwich at me and said "I want macaroni and cheese NOW!, etc., etc." I want to leave out what I did in that scenario but would like to find out what you would've done if that was your child. Does that make sense? I want to leave out my part of this for fear of criticism mostly but in hopes of getting a broader view of the world and that "NO" my way isn't the ONLY way and right way.

What do you think??? Dumb idea? Let me know if anyone is willing to participate.

Thanks much from a desparate mother of three!!!

(I'm crackin' up!!)

Buddy1 · August 2005

I feel you. I have several 'mini breakdowns' a week.Some days I feel like I have it figured out, some days i dont...in the case of the macaroni, i'd say, 'you want macaroni, make it'... he'd either try to make it or go without. kids get hungry enuf, they'll eat whats in front of them...or it could result in him asking for your help and a good time could be had helping each other make it...

Joe · August 2005

A couple things I try to keep in mind in these situations.

1. Just because my daughter wants mac & cheese doesn't mean she gets it. If I've already planned sandwiches for the meal, that's what we have. If she doesn't want that, then I'm sorry, but this is what's for this meal. And I especially don't respond to demands. I give my daughter respect, and I expect respect in turn, even if we're disagreeing.

2. My daughter participates in planning for meals (and outings, etc.) We all give input, and she has the right to voice her preferences. Within reason we'll plan her desires in, as well as my wife's and mine. However, I still guide the big picture of how we do our meals. (She can't have mac & cheese 5 days in a row, especially when my wife and I also have other things we'd like to eat. And the planning is fairly nutritious. What we plan is balanced, and I expect her to help plan the meals with nutrition in mind.)

My bottom line in dealing with my daughter is that we are a family. We do what's best for the family, which means plenty of compromise. My wife and I are not here to be slaves to my daughter's every whim. Because I expect my daughter to respect me in our communication, and I respect her, then we're able to proceed with fewer arguments.

And we all have to deal with the consequences of our decisions. (We only eat out once a week. If you want to go out for pizza on a Tuesday, then we don't go out on the weekend - which is our preference usually.)

Michigander · August 2005

I like your idea for suggestions Tanne. I'm sorry if I was too critical in my earlier posting. I only raised one son who is now in his early 20's. (This can also, at times, be the other terrible two's!) I tip my hat to you, raising three children. I couldn't have juggled that many...maybe not even two.
You have my respect.

Michigander

Tanne71 · August 2005

Hi, and thanks to all....I have a few that I am getting together, but am heading off to bed. Thanks for listening and I will be posting soon with a recent TRUE scenario! Thanks again, Theory

Carl · August 2005

[cite] Tanne71:[/cite]Zane stood on his chair and threw his sandwich at me and said "I want macaroni and cheese NOW!, etc., etc."

First thing to ascertain is whether this is a 'mutual interaction' fairly unique to you and Zane, i.e., the dynamics of your interaction with him has gradually evolved to this point,... or.... Zane behaves like this with your husband, his grandparents, ... anyone and everyone, which may indicate that this behavior is likely a unique facet of his innate personality.

Knowing which way this leans can help clarify which way to proceed. The deeper you realized what is actually happening - the broad picture - the easier it becomes to know what to do in your particular case. This step is crucial to wisely dealing with any aspect of life, eh?

Tanne71 · September 2005

Well, I haven't posted in a while. I've been real busy with getting ready for school. All three of the children will be in school this year. I would love to home school and have thought deeply about it, but due to my lack of effective parenting, that would be a disaster!

I am having the most difficulty with sibling rivalry at this moment. For example, the twins came to me this morning and asked if they could get something to drink, and I said, Yes, have a water bottle. Next you know, I hear smacking and wailing! Zane got a water and so did his twin Derek. In Zane's mind he thought they should share it (as they usually do share things) but, when Derek got his own water out of the fridge, Zane punched him, Derek fell to the ground and then Zane kicked him in the face and stomach!

This all happened in about 2.5 seconds, what would you have done?????

Oh yes, this is a daily scenario here lately!! UGH!

Thanks for your insights!!

Theory

Carl · September 2005

[cite] Tanne71:[/cite] .... Zane punched him, Derek fell to the ground and then Zane kicked him in the face and stomach!

.... what would you have done?????

More importantly, what would their father do?

Boys need fathers as a role model. Some boys MUCH more than others. Zane may need a much stronger 'father / male' influence than you as a woman can provide. The modern life style of fathers (and often mothers too) away at work leaving children to be raised by one spouse or the 'system' is not ideal. Any child out on the edges of the 'bell curve' will be impacted. We evolved being raised by both parents and extended family as well, and this was the rule for most people up until the industrial revolution. The folly of modern culture is the arrogant notion that we are 'above' Nature, and can [chref=16]innovate[/chref] as we please.

That said, who knows...? Boys will be boys, which women often have a hard time dealing with. So, again how's father feel about it all? Grandpa? Uncles? I'd say, start by getting some men involved.

Buddy1 · September 2005

first, kudos for recognizing that you're inadequate to provide a proper home school environment-too many parents think they're capable of this awesome task, and fail miserably...
next, you need to recognize that physical aggresion of this sort is not normal and not acceptable-dont let it go to the point where someone dies-i've worked with kids for too many years not to recognize obvious signs of impending big trouble-i've seen many kids die from 'sibling rivalry'...a kid who believes physical aggression is an acceptable way of getting their way is an adult who believes this, and thats why they keep building prisons...but everything kids do is learned behavior...whats going on that the kid thinks this is how it's done in the world?
I believe a psychloigical exam would be beneficial, from a competent doctor who won't just say the kid needs more hugs...

Lynn Cornish · September 2005

I've refrained from posting here because I have no children of my own, only stepsons. But I just have to say that when the boys were kids, they did engage in physical confrontations and they turned out perfectly well-adjusted and "normal" (whatever that is).

I've discerned that boys are more large-muscle inclined while girls do the small muscle activities, so a girl may slap or pitch but a boy will throw someone thru a window (that happened...luckily, I had a wall hanging over the glass).

Reading this thread, I am thinking, the problem is that Mom thinks there's a problem. Don't most kids act this way? Isn't it just part of growing up?

Tanne71 · September 2005

Hi Lynn and thanks for the comment. But, absolutely not do I feel that this aggression is natural for such minute circumstances. I have discussed this with my husband and we are looking into therapy for him. I am very worried that this will roll over into the peer setting at school as well, and that simply can not be tolerated.

If you've read my other posts, my twins were born extremely premature and do suffer some mild neurological problems. We aren't for sure the full extent of damage done, but in time we will know. It's likely that they will have trouble with learning i.e. math, writing, and social settings etc. But those are all just possibilities now, no-one can really say for sure how they will turn out when they are all grown.
This particular baby has been diagnosed with non-verbal learning weakness. What that means, I don't know.

My main objective here is to try and be the best parent I can be and I really don't know how to handle these little guys I guess because they aren't wired like the rest of us??? But hearing how others deal with similar issues that they've encountered is what I am trying to obtain so I can look at these situations from an outsiders point of view. And try to decide which manner best suits my family.

Thank you again for replying!
Theory

Carl · September 2005

[cite] Tanne71:[/cite]
1... But, absolutely not do I feel that this aggression is natural for such minute circumstances.

2.... we are looking into therapy for him.

3.... I am very worried that this will roll over into the peer setting at school as well

4.... my twins were born extremely premature and do suffer some mild neurological problems.

5.... This particular baby has been diagnosed with non-verbal learning weakness.

6.... handle these little guys I guess because they aren't wired like the rest of us

Theory

1 Beware of 'absolute'. Natural is anything but...

2 Beware of professionals. Get 1-2-3 opinions. Experts tend to shoehorn reality into their preconceptions. Sometimes that works, sometimes great folly and woe ensues.

3 School is an 'unnatural' institution and can be an unhealthy environment for any kid a tad outside the bell curve 'normal' . School is an institution run by professionals to shoehorn kids into the paradigm and free up their parents to work in the 'factory'. It is an expedient artifact of modern human culture which people rationalize as being pinnacle of progress.

4 Don't we all? Diagnoses run amuck these days. Well, maybe they always have. In other times they would be diagnosed as being possessed by spirits. So beware.

5 Ditto #4

6 Ditto #4, and #1. Beware of preconceptions of what you think 'is'. You can easily set in motion self fulfilling prophecies. The folly of certainty pervades everything. Try applying the gist of [chref=1]Chapter 1[/chref] to every thought you have for a week and see what happens to 'reality'.

To quote the Tao Te Ching, [chref=71]To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.[/chref] I'm afraid we make that error most of the time. Sigh....

Tanne71 · September 2005

Thanks Carl for the insight.

Hmmmm......this is what I am feeling at this moment. When first reading your post I was confused. So, I waited a few minutes and read it again and then again.

I hear you. But, when I clicked over to chapter 1 to search for the "gist" I got scared. I don't know where/how to find the "gist" in there, so how am I to apply it for a week? That's my biggest hurdle. How do you teach yourself to understand these chapters? It's hard.

Any suggesstions?

Thanks for letting/allowing/helping me see things in a slightly different light. This is what I appreciate so much in reading your posts Carl. But like I mentioned, I get stuck when faced with a chapter to myself.

Thanks again,
Theory

Carl · September 2005

[cite] Tanne71:[/cite]
1... But, when I clicked over to chapter 1 to search for the "gist" I got scared.

2... I don't know where/how to find the "gist" in there, so how am I to apply it for a week?

3... How do you teach yourself to understand these chapters? It's hard.

Oh boy Theory, you are asking one of those age old impenetrable questions. [chref=40]Turning back[/chref] into the question can offer more insight than any 'answer', per se. Nevertheless, I'll beat around the bush a bit.

1. You may have hit the nail on the head when you said, "I got scared". All living things, including us, have an innate fear instinct. This emotion guides survival more than any other. Most of the time this sense works 'under the radar'. It guides our thoughts and actions even though we are not aware of it directly. We notice the effects - the symptoms - of fear. The experience that we refer to as 'fear' is actually a strong stress response to fear. The fear sense is the power which drives need. Our needs are the effects of fear which we can easily notice (like the stress of hunger). However, the fear sense which drives need is subtle, [chref=14]indistinct and shadowy[/chref]. It is the haunting sense which is often referred to as the [chref=5]void[/chref]. NOTE: be careful not to misinterpret what I mean by the word 'fear'. Again, I'm not referring to the 'yang' stress "yikes" response. This 'fear' is [chref=25]silent[/chref], deep, and [chref=32]nameless[/chref]. Some like to think of this [chref=40]Nothing[/chref] as [chref=4]God[/chref]. I sometimes think of this [chref=16]emptiness[/chref] as the [chref=20]mother[/chref] of the 'big bang'. In any case, its [chref=21]essence is quite genuine, and within it is something that can be tested[/chref].

2. Now, let's get practical. While the 'answer' you seek lies in getting in touch with fear, this is difficult in the beginning for the baseline sense of fear is 'invisible' - under the radar of awareness. Again, we easily notice the effects (of fear); we miss the subtle causes (fear itself). So, begin by spending some time observing the effects, i.e., your needs and its associated reactions. Notice other people's needs and 'tune in' to the amorphous level of fear that drives them. Take notes maybe.

3. Believing that we control our life hinders deeper observation of our needs and the fear that drives it. If we believe in free will, we tend to emotionally jump ahead to 'solutions' and 'answer'. Of course, it is fear that prompts the need that drives our attachment to this belief in free will and control... :?

So you see, it is a vicious circle that goes roughly like this:
Fear drives our need to believe in free will; the belief in free will drives us to jump ahead to seek 'answers'; need then drives us to hang on to the 'answers' (whether material things or knowledge); the clinging to these 'answers' re-enforces the illusion of self; the illusion of self disconnects us from the [chref=39]One[/chref] which pushes fear's buttons.

Like a dog chasing its tail, this prevents us from '[chref=40]turning back[/chref]' into the [chref=21]indistinct and shadowy[/chref] fear itself. Only when we remain still and turn back are we able to [chref=47]know[/chref]. And, it is this knowing that you are seeking... yes?

To sum up:
A solid step toward "teaching yourself" might be to take a very close look at 'Take the Free Will Challenge and Win'. Do your best to observe moment by moment so that you may notice what is really going on. In order to effectively take 'it' all in, refrain from judging what you observe, i.e., good vs. bad and such. Although, do look for similarities, i.e., parallels to other experiences, times, peoples, places. It is through an increasing awareness of similarities and 'coincidence' that Taoist 'learning' will occur. The [chref=19]learning[/chref] that stems from awareness of differences is a [chref=53]by-path[/chref], and will not bring contentment.

I sure used a lot of links in this. But, they are relevant and will hopefully shed light on what I'm getting at. So, spend a few moments clicking on them at some point to gather up whatever meaning might lurk there. "Understanding" comes through sensing the [chref=14]the thread running through[/chref] it all. Opps, there I go again...

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