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Carl, can I get some advice please?
HI TANNE71,
The problem lies with you is that you didnt have confidence and also
you are too kind hearted or too lenient and that is why you loved your kids very much and unable to tame them.in other words you pampered them too
much but at the same time you cant show your anger to them.So the only solution is try to control yourself instead of them since you cant controlled
them.If you are practicing taoist then here is what you can do.Take up
meditation and put a vow to be vegetarian if you are not a vegan for let say 3 month from now.Put a wish together with the vow and bets me you will see some result after that.If you take up meditation then you will be more confidence in your life and you can deal in any situation you face in a less problem state.Hope this help.
The problem lies with you is that you didnt have confidence and also
you are too kind hearted or too lenient and that is why you loved your kids very much and unable to tame them.in other words you pampered them too
much but at the same time you cant show your anger to them.So the only solution is try to control yourself instead of them since you cant controlled
them.If you are practicing taoist then here is what you can do.Take up
meditation and put a vow to be vegetarian if you are not a vegan for let say 3 month from now.Put a wish together with the vow and bets me you will see some result after that.If you take up meditation then you will be more confidence in your life and you can deal in any situation you face in a less problem state.Hope this help.
Comments
I assume your twins are fraternal? It sound like simple animal nature to me. Each individual expresses their needs and fears differently according to inherited traits and circumstances. Civilized circumstances have diminished 'nature's discipline' an essential balancing influence from human existence. To the extent you can model nature in raising kids you can make up for this loss.
Compare, for example, some aspects of life in the wild with how we in modern society live:
Wildlife pays for what it gets up front...
.... We seek to get first and pay later.
Wildlife waits to get what it wants...
... We rush to get what we want.
Wildlife shuns or banishes group members who break trust...
... We make excuses for our self and others.
These essays may help fill in some background understanding on how I see the human condition and nature, e.g., 'nature's discipline'.
http://centertao.org/understandingbuddhism.php
http://centertao.org/buddhismobservations.php
Obviously your 'spunky' boy feels no respect for you. He is instinctively pushing the limits and becoming next in line - alpha-male instinct - in the hierarchy of your family. Your husband is gone enough that your son doesn't have enough 'father alpha-male knows best and I'll bite you if you get out of line' kind of 'nature's discipline' around him. And, I presume he's not getting that kind of feedback from your local tribe or village.
It is up to you to fill that void and provide the void. 'Kids' of any age, but especially children, fear the void, and when they sense it, it give them a deep sense of humility and respect. Can you feel this void? That's why I suggested you sit down, breathe, wait and embrace it. Kids hate to wait. Kids fear waiting. Waiting is where you return to the void. To the extent you can slow down, stop and remain still, your son will 'fear' you, and respect will build. Note: I'm talking about the 'fear' of nothing, silence, stillness, boredom, not the usual 'fear' of something... like being hit or something.
I'll give a few examples of how I modeled the void for my kids. One boy, 5 at the time, lied to me. I shunned him for a week as though he was not there. This very hard for a parent to do, but extremely effective. One boy refused to eat the edges of the bread. He got nothing to eat until he ate them. Another time, on a walk, he refused to go further. I sat down on the side walk with him for an hour... waiting... waiting... waiting... he couldn't wait to go!
The point I make is as you are, so your son will be. Relationships are dynamic; how we act depends on who we are with. If you can just sit down and remain still, you have a chance. If not, you may consider asking for help in your area.
I'd like to be of more help, but honestly, your solution lies within you. The Taoist views can help 'tune you in' to the emptiness and true weakness that to the extent you can find within yourself will turn things around. I leave you with this Taoist view...
[chref=17]The best of all rulers is but a shadowy presence to his subjects.
Next comes the ruler they love and praise;
Next comes one they fear;
Next comes one with whom they take liberties.[/chref]
Your own stillness and 'waiting silence' will translate into a 'shadowy presence' for your son.
5) Don't hope. Just be...
1) Don't research that. Just 'sit', not literally necessarily,... but then again...
2) Adults are not different. Ponder that deeply!
3) Yelling! You are at the same 'bio level' as Zane. You are peers at those time. School yard politics.
4) No! It is more subtle and far reaching than that. Start earlier before symptoms appear. Does Zane 'work' for his dinner? For his toys? Does Zane have to wait (days, weeks, months, years) to get what he wants? How responsive are to his neediness? Do you let him wait?
I wanted to say before, which ties into #3, to hold all the kids responsible for what any one of them does. You are 'chief' and they are the 'Indians'. If they feel a collective shared responsibility via consequences that descend on all of them, they will bond better, have deeper mutual respect and sense your integrity. You need to drop the humanistic crap about 'fair'. Nature is not 'fair', it treat all things [chref=5]ruthlessly[/chref], and thus all things respect nature. Nature shows no [chref=79]favoritism[/chref], thus all things love nature.
Umm, yes....Zane waits, not patiently but because I have three everyone is aware that mom can only do so much. I am always saying "wait". He rarely gets what he wants such as toys and extra priviledges due to his behavior. And I do all that I can not to reward bad behavior. I admit I don't know what you mean when you ask if he 'works' for his dinner though. I do have consequences but it is as though he could care less. What's more is, I do follow through with the consequences....go to your room, toy taken away, event taken away.....
Yes, adults are like children, I thought of that immediately after I typed it. But what about communication?? That's the problem isn't it? My actions should guide them more than my words??
If you wouldn't mind elaborating a bit more on how to effectively teach a child to act appropriately through the way of, well....I don't know what way. But it can be done and I know it has to start with me but I don't know what to do.
Thanks again...
Theory
I've commented on your comments below. One thing to keep in mind: you never know how much is enough. Often a very small degree of counterbalancing influences can have huge effects. And likewise, a small imbalance can make life seem miserable (like a little splinter in your finger). So, don't over think what you imagine you need to do. Just proceed step by step on this [chref=64]journey.[/chref] And do click on those links, like the one on '[chref=64]journey[/chref]'. Hopefully they will help you see the Taoist view in the context of your situation. This is the only way we can know the 'way'.
1) Do not blame yourself, skill-wise or any other 'wise'. We are all ignorant and without free will. Realizing that is a major advance forward. You've taken sound steps in that regard... bravo! It is not a matter of parenting skills really, it is much more subtle and interconnected than that. Our reality is a dynamic interaction between your 'wild nature', Zane's 'wild nature', the rest of the family's 'wild nature', and the affluent civilized circumstances you all find yourselves in. How to be the [chref=17]the best of all rulers[/chref] is our goal, right? To this end, 'right understanding' is essential. With understanding [chref=65]complete conformity[/chref] with nature happens naturally. Thus, gaining understanding is the issue, as I sense you realize deeply. The question is how? You have taken the most important step... feeling a strong need to understand.
2) It really isn't about understanding anything 'out there'. Even the 'mind' is out there. we know within. True [chref=16]knowledge[/chref] is self knowledge. Our needs and fears, however, tend to obfuscate that understanding. So, sitting with ourselves, looking within, and facing those needs and fears is a crucial step to self understanding.
3) Don't say anything. Silence is the most powerful social 'tool' there is! Actions, or non-actions, speak louder than words!
4) Remember, each of us inherited our unique personalities, some are timid... some are pushy. Zane obviously falls into the later. How we are though mirrors a profoundly opposite unseen 'nature' within ourselves. Quietly look for that in Zane, and you will begin to know what to do in his case. Each person is unique in many superficial ways. It is this surface we must cope with. The easiest more efficient way is to tailor our approach to the individual. Of course, we can't know others any deeper than we know ourselves, so you see it all come back to self understanding. Know yourself and you will know all you need to know. It takes courage to face one's self, but there is no other way.
5) No! Communication is one of a number of hyped up 'virtues' in our alienated industrial affluent culture. Communication occurs naturally. Children (and animals), and Zane in your case, sense who we are, needs and fears. What we say is irrelevant. Verbal communication is an illusion - it is spending time and intuitively connecting with someone that brings harmony, or disharmony, depending on the nature of those involved. The words are like smoke... it is the fire of who we really are that warms us... or burns us.
The larger point here is to be 'suspicious' of all the 'no brainer self evident truths' which the American paradigm pushes. Much of our mind-set, our paradigm is set up to rationalize 'freedom', capitalism, industrialization, and so on, without having to face up to the unintended consequences this approach to life brings. It is the 'childish' nature of all cultures to rationalize their imbalance with nature. Religions try to redress this, but often end up espousing the same self serving nonsense themselves.
I tend to think that I am content to just be, but my kids are the opposite. It seems as though they thrive on chaos??? I don't know. But when Daddy is home, I mean the second he closes that door, they do as they are told and behave in a much more appropriate fashion. If he (Daddy) is the Chief, can't I be the co-chief? My husband respects me and most of the time at home when he is here, it is he that is listening to me and doing things that I ask when needing help with dinner/housework etc. and this is all done in front of the kids so I am confused, they don't see their father disrespect me so how did this happen?
If you need additional senarios, I'm sure I can muster up a few more
1) Nonsense. Death sobers us all :shock: . Loss of what we desire or hold onto is the cousin of death. Look within to see the fear that Zane senses. Fear is a biological 'energy' is all life.
2) Don't say a word. Unpredictability will surprise them, frighten them and gain some respect. As it is now, they are reading you like a book.
3) Our family waits about 2 hours after getting up before eating. Yoga, garden chores, music, study Chinese. An all important, crucial point - I do these with my kids. Shared work bonds. That's a direction to look into.
4) If this were my situation, I would not offer anything which they were expecting to have. Maybe lunch? When they finally asked for lunch, I would ask them if they had done their duties to 'earn' lunch. "What duties, pappa?" "Well, let's sit down and try to remember what those are". "I don't want to!", "Fine, tell me when you do.", So, they'd ask for lunch, I'd be silent and ignore them. At some point I'd remind them that there was a priority. ... Huh? "What's that pappa?". "Well, are you are ready to sit down and see?"... The key here is to keep the kids, especially Zane, off balance. The unknown terrifies us and engenders respect naturally.
5) Maybe you have too many rules. Have a few bottom line rules which if broken earn a days worth of shunning, for example. You may be constricting their 'living space' and suffering the consequences. Give them as much 'rope' as possible. Mothers can be much too protective (out of instinct) for a child's own good in the ultra save non-wilderness circumstances of civilization. That protective instinct you feel, or the need to keep order, i.e.,'rules', evolved for survival in wilderness, not in life as we live it today. This is a very big problem, especially with boys who don't have the constant day in day out influence of pappa. Now pappa is off at work and its up to mama to fill his shoes. We didn't evolve to live this way either. Up until recently most children were around their parents all the time... until the industrial revolution split family and extended family asunder.
6) Well, the conventional is based on life as it was before the 20th century. Much of it is obsolete, but it will take some bumps in culture's road to find a path that fits the times.
7) Daddy is more detached, which they sense and fear...and thus respect. They 'want' to win his favor. Whereas they have you in the palm of their hand.
8.) Yes, I get a better sense of the dynamics. I have seem much the same in families around here. This whole situation still rests on what you want, your wants and insecurities. Are you able to let them feel hunger? Hunger is a very important feeling which affluent life shuts out for the most part. Of course I'm not talking days without food. But, a day or two without food 'wakes' people up. Your mother instincts would have difficulty with that, right? Or, I could see some people making that an 'ideal' punishment in itself. Not good. This is just an example of how what ever you are holding on to can become a 'weapon' others will use against you. Not, consciously, just naturally. You see, it all comes down to what you are ready to give up. As Jesus put it, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." Interpret "my" as Nature's if you like.
I write so much I probably obfuscate what I'm trying to get across. Try observing their actions as a reflection of your approach. And then look within and wonder. What you will find, if you look deeply and honestly enough, is that it comes down to something(s) you are holding on to. What that is only you can discover and let go of. And lets not forget the something(s) you fear losing or not achieving. Discover and 'own' your deepest needs and fears and you will know what to do naturally. I know of no other way.
While soaking in the hot bath (a great reflection zone
What we are talking about here, and what you are seeking to do, can be difficult to do alone, depending upon your innate nature of course. Most people have strong social instincts and so working together as a group works best. For example, Alcoholics Anonymous and religious groups have remarkable success in helping people turn their life around. Granted parenting is different in many regards, but it can be a struggle just the same and so should respond to group effort.
So, anyway you can reach out to folks in your area, and certainly try to get your husband involved, might help a great deal. My experience tells me that the Taoist approach I've been yapping about can be extremely effective - though, so much of it depends on one's own maturity. And we all have to wait for the years to pass by for maturity / wisdom to seep in. In a group setting each can draw on the wisdom of the others - a collective sharing of wisdom, [i.e., we ALL tend to have innate wisdom until our personal emotions stir us up. The ensuing feelings, arising from our needs or fears (what else), impell us to be foolish and hasty. A group can help still these emotions.]
Maybe it is time for a SPA - Struggling Parents Anonymous - self help organization. The village and the extended family of ancestors is long gone, so the need is very much there. Group effort = group wisdom, (unless, of course, tribal emotions are high, then is becomes a lynch mob.)
There are a few questions that have been running through my mind since we've started discussing this....I don't know how to take a section of what you said and address it like you do with the cute little box and all but this is what is playing through my head during the last day or so....
Too many rules? Really? I think possibly I am expecting them to act like little mature adults most of the time. I have extremely high expectations of myself and I am gathering perhaps I am pushing these on my children some?
How much rope in enough? I guess perhaps in the saying that who I am so shall my son be is true in the case of me and my mother. I am doing to my kids as I had done to me. But as I remember it, it didn't seem that difficult to abide by her rules. I just remember that when my mother said do this, do that, we did it. Period.....Perhaps that's a control issue? Who knows....
Last night after a tiring day of complete and utter disregard for everything I asked with my sons getting into mischief I tried to not say anything. Is this suppose to be done when my husband isn't home? I was preparing dinner and Zane kept coming in to ask me when dinner was going to be ready. I said nothing and continued to do my stuff. He must have asked 10 times and he at one time asked "Can you hear me?" When Derek came in and asked me something I again, did nothing. As Zane, Derek continued to keep asking while following me down to the basement while I put a load of clothes into the dryer. I still didn't reply. Zane standing close by and witnessing all of this says to Derek....."Derek, just go ask Daddy he'll tell you." Is that what was suppose to happen?????
:roll:
I have printed out our conversations and have read and reread them. I think I have figured out what I am afraid of letting go of but really don't understand how to and what will happen if I do. I told you that they were born 14 weeks too soon. I almost lost them as soon as I got them. They had about a 20% chance of survival and naturally I do try to protect them. I fear losing them. Maybe not physically now that they have made it and are turning five, but I suppose it can be transferred into losing their need. Maybe I'm afraid of them not needing me as they had when they were so fragile and I was the only one in my mind capable of caring for them.
With that being said. I appreciate it when you use "if this were my situation" because it gives me a clear cut way to understand the heart of what you are trying to get across. I guess I like the "recipe" kind of learning. Although I think I am giving this a pretty good shot :P
If you have a link for the Taoist guide to parenting, I'd like to read that. I know you said you were wanting to add on to it, but I am eager to indulge. I know you can't tell me precisely everything I need to do, and if you don't mind sharing with me some of the ways in which you taught your two wonderful sons how to live positively, hopefully just a tiny bit can lead me the way to accomplishing a nurturing, loving environment for my three children.
As always, Thank you,
Theory
I have just one thing to add and it might be repeating something already said because I came into the discussion late and only quickly read what's been posted.
What Carl says is true. My husband raised his sons using only time-outs as discipline. When the boys misbehaved, they had to go sit in the living room (no man's land) for 10 or 15 minutes with nothing to occupy them. It worked. I can stilll see Phil, sitting in a big armchair, his feet dangling, his head down, a little pout on his face. It was pretty hard to leave him sitting there but we did and it worked.
The other method he used was the threat of withholding a treat....if you don't behave we won't go to Marineland. The boys were never hit.
1) 'Enough' increases each moment. Most people need social support. No one has free will.
2) The downside of freedom is doing what you want. Ironic, eh?
3) I doubt scaring. What you lose is the harmony of your family moments - flow is low.
4) click on the 'quote' button at the top of the message you want to 'box'
5) Expect them to be animals instead. The expectations you hold on to and now are projecting are THE source of your disharmony. How to resolve that is your big question! Look at you needs, prioritize them. On one hand you want your expectations met, yet on the other hand you want harmony. The two are like oil and water. You can not have both... period! This is the 'secret' you seek.
6) You misunderstand. Who you are in the moment influences who Zane is in that moment. It is immediate. Your expectation profoundly influence how Zane responds to you.
7) Everyone is different, some comply, some resist. And, who was you mother 'within', her fears and insecurities? her needs? These inner often hidden and subtle aspect really determine what's goes on.
8 ) Eighter way. The shunning silence is a way to respond to disrespectful behavior. I shun adult or children who are disrespectful.
9) Sounds fine. Don't expect immediate results. Your silence will work the more you deeply feel that silence is the only path. 'Acting the part' will be much less (or not at all) effective. You have to feel it deeply enough to where it becomes you. Then, they will NOTICE.
10) This is the big 'jump' you need to take. Let go on one need to allow another to blossom. Sink deep and touch what you truly need. Keep touching that and the other, conflicting needs will be easier to let go of. But, this requires constant mindfulness. Moment by moment, i.e., you don't 'solve the problem' and move on, so to speak. As long as you want it both ways, you are doomed to continue on your present path.
11) No "recipe" will work, for this in not about learning how to do something, it is about being brutally honest with yourself. Only this can help you let go of that which is blocking the 'natural flow'.
12) This won't work as I did not teach them a thing! I watch my needs moment to moment and usually 'tune in' to the one which will bring me what I truly want.
Although, I did incorporate activities into their lives which modeled nature and so I assumed would keep them emotionally healthy (grounded). Some examples: Dropping any 'pleasurable' activity when it became expected routine. Downplaying the cherished celebrations - birthdays, xmass, and such. Waiting for any and every thing as much as possible. Planting pinto beans so they could shell them to eat. Planting small plot of wheat so they could harvest, grind and make bread. They do the dishes, wash the floors, and so on - not while I'm watching, but as shared activity, shared work.
However, you must realize that it is not doing these things that does the trick. They will not 'work' unless you are true to your self. If you can manage to go beyond your expectations and turn back to what you really want in life and your family, you will find your own 'recipe'. Look to nature, how it works. Does nature celebrate birthdays? No, so what's that really about?
I'm not saying celebrating birthdays is good or bad. It can be a 'tool' either way. If you slow down, look within, you will find a way to incorporate any and all aspects of life to fit you and your kids unique circumstance. My 'recipe' fit mine. Yours must fit yours. There is no 'true' recipe that works outside of the one which blossoms moment by unique moment.
Standing up against the 'social current' will be your biggest hurdle. Remember how I was perceived by Vickie to be brainwashing my kids. Not making a big deal over birthdays, for example, goes against what all America stands for (birthdays are no big deal in Asia either). Much is this culture, and civilization in general, is lopsided and 'anti nature' in one way or the other. Our whole system of 'progress' does not model nature. So, if you are to follow nature's model, you are often going to be at odds with the 'norm'. Thus, it will be your own integrity which you'll have to draw upon to resist the cultural tide. Turning back to self understanding, deep honest self understanding, gives you the foundation upon which to anchor yourself as the culture tide washes the way and that.
13) Lots of words...
http://centertao.org/letterstoandy.php?l=guidetoparenting
Let me know if you find errors or if something is unclear. I usually manage to do both.
I will let you know if I have additional questions or need futher inspirational posts. I enjoy reading your posts not just to me, but all in general. It calms me to let my mind wonder and go where it hasn't yet ventured. When I read your writings, I seem to let go a little of what I thought was etched in stone.
Thanks again....
Theory
Although you asked Carl for advice, here's my two cents on the subject.
1. Don't keep beginning your instructions to the kids with please...
"Please pick up your jammies." "Please pick up your toys." Please
used in this way gives the connotation of "begging", not politeness.
You are giving the kids a directive, not a request.
2. Have the kids make a chore chart with you. You can get these type of
charts, with the lines already drawn, at a teacher supply store or maybe
Office Depot or Office Max. They can find pictures in magazines to go
along with the chore and decorate the chart.
3. The purpose of this chart is to make them responsible for their own
chores. It's their daily to-do list. Another member of this group
( I believe it was Buddy) said they couldn't function without yellow sticky
notes. Well, me neither. They keep me organized. Kids need some
organization too. Have them put whatever stickers they want on the
chart after the chore is done. Maybe have a different type of sticker for
each kid, or a different colored pen...whatever you want.
4. Let's say one of them (or all of them!) did all their chores without being
asked/reminded. Do you give a reward? Or is the chart with all the
stickers or stars enough of a reward? There are pros and cons to
each. That would be for you and your husband to decide.
5. I do like Lynn's approach...withholding a reward and doing time-outs.
Maybe any toys that aren't picked up, have to be earned back?
6. You have to be consistent.
7. Maybe why the "silent" treatment didn't work with the kids asking when
dinner would be ready, was it was the wrong time to be silent. Maybe
the kids (and Dad?) can do things to help with dinner? Dinner shouldn't
be a silent time, it's a time to share about one's day.
8. My take on the little one laughing when being caught doing something
naughty, is to "catch him doing something good" and praise him for it.
9. And I'd ignore the little naughty things he's doing (I know this is going
to be hard), and keep catching and catching him doing good things. He
laughs because he knows he's going to get a "reaction" from you.
Surprise him with no reaction...unless it's for positive behavior.
We are all here for you. Our children don't come with manuals. I'm not an expert. These are just some methods that have worked for me as a mother and teacher.
Best Regards,
Michigander
give them responsibilites and praise them if they do it, no matter how it turns out.
dont ovewhelm yourself-kids see you in control of yourself, they'll be more comfortable with the idea that they're safe with you. that you're in control of their life.
the sooner they learn that adults and authority figures will always be there and most will not be as kind and understanding as mama, the better.